What has happened to society?

[kokopelli]

Bravo

Bravo.. Well said.. Give that man a beer... on Sunday... held by a scantily clad woman Ron

In the Golden Era there were probably those who looked at bygone days and wondered what happened to society in the 1930s & 40s.

Today we look at bygone days and wonder what's become of our society.

How much do want to bet that our grandchildren will someday look upon our present society with nostalgic eyes and dream about the "good 'ol days" of the early 21st century?

 

[Brad Bowers]

Conformity was a big part of life back then. If you weren't conforming to acceptable societal standards, you could be ostracized. You can easily see this from reading early century articles on hatlessness. You belonged to a community and were expected to behave and conform as such.

We don't think of ourselves today as communally as we once did. People seem to be more self involved today, more selfish, but this is all from the trend away from conformity and a rise toward individualism and the celebration of self. This is, perhaps, an increase in our individual freedoms, but many of us bemoan the loss of those standards.

Group identity is still very much alive, just on a much smaller level than yesteryear. Think of subcultures, like hip-hop, rap, Goth, Fedora Loungers, and so forth, that have their own expectations and conformations as a measure of that group indentity. But on a national level, there isn't much group identity anymore.

Brad

 

[Foofoogal]

I gave my opinion and you gave yours.

I am stating the boundaries in the part of the country I have lived in all my life came from the boundaries of religion and hence the blue law. Not sure how old you are but I am 50 so remember this well.

So whatever boundaries you specifically use in your world and you now have or don't have and can see the difference is what is important to you.

 

[deadpandiva]

I think no one whould be allowed to wear pajama pants in public. That's taking comfort to the point of ridiculousness.

I'm not sure what the modern day lack of manners stems from. I don't know if I learned manners from my parents. I think my extreme politness stems from low self esteem rather than A high regard for others. I am not sure if that makes sense but my manners are more of a habit than a conscious act.

 

[LadyStardust]

I gave my opinion and you gave yours.

I am stating the boundaries in the part of the country I have lived in all my life came from the boundaries of religion and hence the blue law. Not sure how old you are but I am 50 so remember this well.

So whatever boundaries you specifically use in your world and you now have or don't have and can see the difference is what is important to you.

What boundaries??? And further more, what, if anything, do you mean by stating "your world" as if I live on another planet? I've lived on planet Earth all my life, and in the South for the last 10 years, so it's not as if I'm stating a snap judgement. I have had plenty of time to see exactly how things are, and see them played out that way time after time.
Also, I was not saying anything about your opinion, more the implications, which many people could miscontstrue.

 

[LadyStardust]

I think no one whould be allowed to wear pajama pants in public. That's taking comfort to the point of ridiculousness.

I'm not sure what the modern day lack of manners stems from. I don't know if I learned manners from my parents. I think my extreme politness stems from low self esteem rather than A high regard for others. I am not sure if that makes sense but my manners are more of a habit than a conscious act.

I think it's interesting to take this to an individual perspective. And the old Nature vs. Nurture debate. Oh AP Psychology, what fun times those were...

 

[warbird]

I think no one whould be allowed to wear pajama pants in public. That's taking comfort to the point of ridiculousness.

I'm not sure what the modern day lack of manners stems from. I don't know if I learned manners from my parents. I think my extreme politness stems from low self esteem rather than A high regard for others. I am not sure if that makes sense but my manners are more of a habit than a conscious act.

Well, I would say all you need is a simple attitude adjustment!

For one thing you are a beautiful woman who obviously has the ability to look inward and assess yourself, suggesting intelligence. You can certainly assert yourself at least in print as to your thoughts and views. You have no reason to think anything but highly of yourself. I would suggest your manners probably are habits, that isn't a bad thing. Look on it as I do, everyone regardless of class, race status, etc deserves your respect and best manners until they prove they deserve otherwise. You needn't think highly of society to present your best to them, even if you are not likely to get their best.

 

[Joie DeVive]

First of all, I want to wish you well, geoff_icp, in your pursuit of a love. There are still many lovely people out in the world who are seeking companionship. I wish you well with finding that special someone. You may have to look past a modern exterior, but when it comes down to it, it's the heart that counts, and that keeps a couple together. There were an awfully large number of breakups and divorces in Hollywood, even in the Golden Era.

Secondly, I loved what LizzieMaine had to say:

But at the same time it's important to point out that the refined manners and classy dress we see in the movies don't at all reflect the way most people lived -- it may be an idealization of how middle-class people wanted to live, but up until the mid-fifties or so, America was largely a blue-collar working class nation, and baggy work pants and home-made cotton housedresses were more common on the streets in most towns than finely-tailored suits and crisp afternoon gowns.

That is so true. While we love to think that the past was so much more glamorous, it wasn't always the case. I'd say as more people looked like they walked out of The Grapes of Wrath than a perky Astaire and Rogers musical. My parents were born in the early 1940's, and both of them lived without indoor plumbing for extended periods in their lives. Let's be honest, without that convenience, the daily ablutions weren't what they are today. Beyond that, my Dad was one of 7. He had 2 pairs of clothes, and he wore each one for several days at a time between washings.

Now don't get me wrong, I shudder every time I see a teen, or worse, a tween wander by with her thong hanging out of her pants. I sigh when I see pajamas and bedroom slippers wandering the aisle of the local market, and the skirts that would serve better as dishrags due to their size are a particular peeve of mine. I agree that I don't see many people practicing manners the way my Mother taught me to, but when it all comes down to it, I think people are people. What social mores are acceptable will migrate over time, and the pendulum will swing back and forth, but there will always be good, and bad in any society.

 

[Twitch]

This blue law business is still in effect in much of the heartland. If a store that sell liquor, for example is open on Sunday to sell other foodstuff, the liquor aisle is roped off. Many counties and parrishes of various states are dry completely. Some sell packaged liquor but not liquor by the drink. It gets complicated fast.

Why does anyone want to actually argue that manners in previous eras were better or worse. There is no question that our US society was more mannerly and conservative in dress in, say, the 1950s than today.

Mentioning that a few ignoramouses stood out in any past gentile era is accounted for in any discussuion as a given from the get go. There WERE eras in history during which the MAJORITY of people were classier, more dignified, or however you want to define it. While the masters of the Renaissance created a classic era in art we know there were those picking their noses in the streets. It doesn't negate the whole statement that it was a time of rebirth of the classical arts.

 

[reetpleat]

There's also a school of thought that suggests that it was the forced informality of 1950s suburbia that started the ball rolling downhill -- William Manchester writes quite a bit about this in the second volume of "The Glory and the Dream," and even taking into account that Manchester comes across as an upper-class prep-school snob, there's a lot to be said for his theory that a certain sense of reserve started to go out of society around then.

I agree with Flivver though that there was a quantum change in the way people conducted themselves in the '70s. Where I went to school, dress codes were absolutely enforced -- no dungarees, no sneakers, no pants for girls unless a storm day -- until about 1972. By the middle of the '70s, all that had changed.

But at the same time it's important to point out that the refined manners and classy dress we see in the movies don't at all reflect the way most people lived -- it may be an idealization of how middle-class people wanted to live, but up until the mid-fifties or so, America was largely a blue-collar working class nation, and baggy work pants and home-made cotton housedresses were more common on the streets in most towns than finely-tailored suits and crisp afternoon gowns.

I might argue the op;posite of the writer. It may be that the stilted, pretend everything is great world of the fifties paved the way for the ocial upheaval of the sixties.

And do not underestimate thate dramatic change of that era, a big part of it being politics and the viet nam war. All of a sudden everything establishment was out the window taht that included attidutes about work and dress and culture in general.

In some ways it was gret, nd in some ways, depending on your attituded, it was not.

I would have to say that dressing how you nat instead of how peole think you should is an improvement. The people have spoken and if we don't like it, too bad for us. We are free to dress how we want too.

As far as manners go, we have reached a place in our culture where we can try to live for ourselves. this has plusses and minuses. But in some ways, it is n improvement, but when it goes over the edge and afects other nnegatively, then it is a minus.

Culture changes for good and bad, depending on your attutude.

I would say in some ways it is definitely hand in hand. You can not value self expression and living for yourself and at the same time value and strive for living for the good of the group and not the individual. All you cna home for is a good balance.

On a last note, learn a little baout New York in the late eighteen hundreds, or Deadwood, or London or any big city even up to the forties or so. You will find that polite society was a relatively small group of people living a rarirfied life. Good or bad depends on your attitude I guess.

 

[reetpleat]

This blue law business is still in effect in much of the heartland. If a store that sell liquor, for example is open on Sunday to sell other foodstuff, the liquor aisle is roped off. Many counties and parrishes of various states are dry completely. Some sell packaged liquor but not liquor by the drink. It gets complicated fast.

Why does anyone want to actually argue that manners in previous eras were better or worse. There is no question that our US society was more mannerly and conservative in dress in, say, the 1950s than today.

Mentioning that a few ignoramouses stood out in any past gentile era is accounted for in any discussuion as a given from the get go. There WERE eras in history during which the MAJORITY of people were classier, more dignified, or however you want to define it. While the masters of the Renaissance created a classic era in art we know there were those picking their noses in the streets. It doesn't negate the whole statement that it was a time of rebirth of the classical arts.

Ah, but manners are just that, meaning a way of acting. While most of our modern manners are based on the concept of being kind to peole and helping people that need it, much of it is just arbitrary. In othe cultures things are different nd they don't seem to mind. I don't really cre if someone addresses me as sir or dude. But if someone opens a door for me I think it is a nice gesture. But many manners mean nothing to me.

 

[Foofoogal]

What boundaries??? And further more, what, if anything, do you mean by stating "your world" as if I live on another planet? I've lived on planet Earth all my life, and in the South for the last 10 years, so it's not as if I'm stating a snap judgement. I have had plenty of time to see exactly how things are, and see them played out that way time after time.
Also, I was not saying anything about your opinion, more the implications, which many people could miscontstrue.
__________________

I swear I don't even understand this.
Not all people are allergic to religion.
We just need to disagree or something as I am not even sure what your point is and evidently you don't see mine either.

 

[reetpleat]

I have to admit, I didn't read every post, so I may be out of sequence with the general discussion.
I don't believe people, en masse, wore tails for lunch, dinner jackets for dinner, white gloves when they rode the bus BUT leather gloves when they drove, etc etc. Marketing has been around since the dawn of the industrial revolution- "Hey, buy this! We make it, we sell it for a profit, here's why you should buy one!"
HOWEVER, with that said, I do believe things have declined over the decades. True, women have fought for equality, and gained it, but generations are being tricked into giving it up- porn stars are now "acceptable", girls go to school with thongs hanging out of their pants, the portrayal of men vs women on TV is a huge discrepancy (look at Drew Carey show or King of Queens). It shifts our perception of reality, and feeds our insecurities.
I know there's another example involving racial minorities, but I can't go into it- too "hot".
In general though, most people agree there is a "Dumbing Down" of America. Throughout the 40's-60's, America _WAS_ the greatest country, but we became arrogant. It reminds me of the 40-yr-old man who still talks about high school football; yes you scored 4 touchdowns, but that was DECADES ago. We are still fed this belief though- whatever we make MUST be better b/c it's new, right? IF it's new, it's better. Change is good! America has the best ideas- we're constantly changing things, making them bigger, better, faster, stronger. Cash or charge?

Funny you should use the example of The King of Queens. It was intentionally patterned after the Honeymooners and pretty similar.

 

[reetpleat]

I like your point of ethnic mixes, but I'm not sure I buy it. For one thing we had many more immigrants flooding into cities from the last half of the 19th to the mid 20th century. Yet we had the same basic structure of norms. Now today maybe we have more ethnicities that are more different than the differences between western and eastern Europe of that time. I don't know that answer.

Also, this to me doesn't seem to be a shift particular to the US. I've seen women in Eastern Europe dress like they are heading to the brothel for everyday dress and men wearing essentially the same shab they do here. Maybe the technology coupled with access all over the world to the MTV culture helped make that change. Again, I don't know the answer.

Inteeresting. I will add that what we considere good manners and politye society is actually a continuation of Anglo societal patterns for the most part. And even back in the day, there was a lot of griping about how the new immigrants did not share "our ways of acting."

 

[warbird]

I for one do not assess the golden era some like to call it by the movies. I also know as Twitch said, there are always exceptions to every rule. That being said I for one and I don't think most here would suggest that the norm was also the view of appropriate dress and manners as those put forth by so-called polite society. in fact I do not consider many of those polite as they treated anyone below them as less than human beings.

Dress is a relative term I suppose. I do not dress vintage, I won no vintage suits. I do wear dress hats as I have done for 20+ years. What I mean and I think most will agree, dress is appropriate for the occasion. For instance, when I go out for dinner I dress in something presentable for appropriateness. I don't wear a torn up tshirt and ratty jeans as I might working in the yard. I take my hat off when sitting in a restaurant, regardless of whether it's a nice establishment or a table in a diner.

I thank people who assist me or bring me something and treat my elders respectfully. We dress appropriately for church out of respect and my kids dress as I say they must. Now that doesn't mean they aren't free to express themselves, but there has to be some rules as well.

 

[TheKitschGoth]

Ah, I see. So you think it's a good thing if there are no appropriate ways of dress or times to dress in certain ways? It's a good thing if people have no pride in appearance as long as everyone accepts however a person chooses to dress?

I do not accept that notion carried out to its fullest extent, but if you do that's your opinion I suppose.

They are clothes. Just bits of fabric strategically placed (well, usually) and as long as it's not hurting anyone then no, I don't care. Just because I don't like what someone wears doesn't mean that I have any right to dictate what they should wear, or to judge them on it.

I don't see how clothes relate to manners.

 

[LizzieMaine]

The more I think about this, the more I keep coming back to a very simple notion -- however we got here, and whatever led to it, we've reached a point in history where *crassness* has become a virtue, the ultimate expression of personal freedom by showing you don't give a whiz what anyone else thinks of anything. Some might consider that a positive development, but in all seriousness: is such a culture *truly* about "freedom," or is it a culture that has simply degenerated into a funkhole of self-interest? Is the right to shoulder people off the sidewalk if they get in your way, the right to blast the rawest obscenties into the ears of people who just might not want to have to hear them, the right, in short, to act like a complete and utter prat in public really a right worth celebrating? Or does it, in fact, cheapen and demean the very idea of what "a free society" ought to be?

 

[Baron Kurtz]

First it's society, then women, then hippies, then blue laws, then prayer, what next? Ron

You're right. it took another couple posts or so before i realised the thread was doomed.

For the record:

My 1968 statement was a joke; that being the date where many would argue the final descent began due to various things that culminated that year around the world.

I had no idea these laws were called "Blue Laws". We had & have similar laws.

bk

 

[warbird]

You're right. it took another couple posts or so before i realised the thread was doomed.

For the record:

My 1968 statement was a joke; that being the date where many would argue the final descent began due to various things that culminated that year around the world.

I had no idea these laws were called "Blue Laws". We had & have similar laws.

bk

BK I knew you were kidding, I simply reasserted that I put no date on it. I do however disagree with koko and I guess now with you if you feel the conversation is lost. I think koko took everything someone suggested to heart and thinks everyone is blamed and everyone is bad. There's a shift in the last number of years and we simply make suggestions as to the reasons for it all. Simple as that.

Overall I think it's been a good conversation.

 

[deadpandiva]

The more I think about this, the more I keep coming back to a very simple notion -- however we got here, and whatever led to it, we've reached a point in history where *crassness* has become a virtue, the ultimate expression of personal freedom by showing you don't give a whiz what anyone else thinks of anything. Some might consider that a positive development, but in all seriousness: is such a culture *truly* about "freedom," or is it a culture that has simply degenerated into a funkhole of self-interest? Is the right to shoulder people off the sidewalk if they get in your way, the right to blast the rawest obscenties into the ears of people who just might not want to have to hear them, the right, in short, to act like a complete and utter prat in public really a right worth celebrating? Or does it, in fact, cheapen and demean the very idea of what "a free society" ought to be?

Well said.
Manners, even if they aren't sincere keep people form getting their feelings hurt and are are appropriate in most situations. Maybe I should replace the word manners with civility but it's basicaly the same thing. I know I have been unintentionally uncivil in the past and I'd rather have in sincere manners than be that way again.