What are you wearing today??

[BR Gordon]

You had said that you'd be in Chile, so the photo must be in Viña. Have a glass of wine for me.

 

[LadyBaltimore]

Fading Fast, I missed that previously, but to be frank, it wouldn't have made a difference in whether or not I smiled in a photo, anyway. I don't owe any stranger a smile, just because they think it's nice or that I look better with it. I've constantly been told I look angry/sad/like I just killed someone, when I'm not making any expression. As if I should have to constantly contort my face, just to make everyone else more comfortable, it assumes that I don't have ownership of my own face, and to make whatever expression feels natural and is genuine. Men always get defensive, when women point this out, and insist they're just trying to be nice or pay us a compliment. A compliment is not telling someone what to do with their face, as if it's innocent and without connotations (or maybe men really are just that ignorant about how it is to be a woman in a still incredibly sexist society). Admonishing me to smile, is not a compliment, it's what men regularly use to harass me with in the streets, and it's not just me, women are constantly told to smile and loosen up a little, by men that we owe nothing to. We're constantly expected to be easy on the eyes, to be put together and look pleasant, look sweet, and fit others ideas of how we should be. And what's more disturbing is that it's expected that we will listen and will care, that we'll smile, or wear make-up, or do our hair a certain way, just because men like us better than way. It presumes that our greatest worth is in our looks, that that's who were are, first a foremost, a face, a smile. I don't smile unless I mean it, I don't care if men think I'm a b****, or melodramatic, for pointing out something that stems from a deep rooted sexism and male entitlement in our culture. Why do I care if I'm beautiful, if anyone else thinks that, if I even think that? My worth has nothing to do with how I look.

Men can protest it's not sexism and it's harmless, all they want, I'll believe it when I start seeing them wolf whistling other men and harassing them, "smile!" too.

Thank you for saying I have a nice smile. I have never been offended by a compliment about my smile without strings attached, it's when people constantly (and I do mean constantly) admonish me, as if I'm a child, to make an expression that isn't genuine, just because they think my face looks better that way. It's a constant battle of, "No, actually, I'll smile if I want to, not because you think I should."

 

[triple-d]

Nice smile Hadley.........just sayin..........

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Wow. Guess she told us...
I'll keep any (what I may think are) compliments to myself from now on. Just don't need any, out of the blue, sudden scolding...but seems it's often the expected norm here from a few. :tape2:
Now I suppose we'll get another long explanation about how men are such brutes..

 

[Two Types]

Fading Fast, I missed that previously, but to be frank, it wouldn't have made a difference in whether or not I smiled in a photo, anyway. I don't owe any stranger a smile, just because they think it's nice or that I look better with it. I've constantly been told I look angry/sad/like I just killed someone, when I'm not making any expression. As if I should have to constantly contort my face, just to make everyone else more comfortable, it assumes that I don't have ownership of my own face, and to make whatever expression feels natural and is genuine. Men always get defensive, when women point this out, and insist they're just trying to be nice or pay us a compliment. A compliment is not telling someone what to do with their face, as if it's innocent and without connotations (or maybe men really are just that ignorant about how it is to be a woman in a still incredibly sexist society). Admonishing me to smile, is not a compliment, it's what men regularly use to harass me with in the streets, and it's not just me, women are constantly told to smile and loosen up a little, by men that we owe nothing to. We're constantly expected to be easy on the eyes, to be put together and look pleasant, look sweet, and fit others ideas of how we should be. And what's more disturbing is that it's expected that we will listen and will care, that we'll smile, or wear make-up, or do our hair a certain way, just because men like us better than way. It presumes that our greatest worth is in our looks, that that's who were are, first a foremost, a face, a smile. I don't smile unless I mean it, I don't care if men think I'm a b****, or melodramatic, for pointing out something that stems from a deep rooted sexism and male entitlement in our culture. Why do I care if I'm beautiful, if anyone else thinks that, if I even think that? My worth has nothing to do with how I look.

Men can protest it's not sexism and it's harmless, all they want, I'll believe it when I start seeing them wolf whistling other men and harassing them, "smile!" too.

Thank you for saying I have a nice smile. I have never been offended by a compliment about my smile without strings attached, it's when people constantly (and I do mean constantly) admonish me, as if I'm a child, to make an expression that isn't genuine, just because they think my face looks better that way. It's a constant battle of, "No, actually, I'll smile if I want to, not because you think I should."

Fair enough point, in my opinion.

No one has ever told me to smile when I post here. I'd think it was a bit odd. Since we are here to discuss clothes/accessories, smiling is an irrelevance. Posing in such a way to best show off the outfit is relevant, a smile isn't.

I'm sure no offence was meant when FF asked you to smile, so let's all keep this about clothes etc.

P.S. Lady Baltimore, I think your outfits look good. Very European, which is something I like.

 

[Eddie Derbyshire]

Hadley H - looks like you're having a good time! Is that a cruise ship you're on?

Here's what I wore the other day for a afternoon party - Puppy-tooth jacket with pleated patch-pockets (soon to have a belt-back), Klipper tie, flannel slacks and a Bailey's of Hollywood panama



Thanks for looking!

 

[Fading Fast]

LB,

After your post, I looked up the definition of "admonish" and saw that the one I had in mind "advise or urge (someone) earnestly," is a less common one than one that defines "admonish" as almost a reprimand. So, first, I did not mean it as a reprimand, but what I thought was sincere encouragement.

When I am having a picture taken of myself, I try to present (with reasonable not insane effort) my best appearance. For example, I've been told to stand up straight as I tend to slouch in pictures. Having seen myself both ways, I agree with the advice. I take advice like that in a spirit of both positive encouragement and friendship and was giving it in the same spirit.

On another website, I encouraged a man to smile as well as I thought it looked better for him. He told me his wife tells him the same thing all the time. It was that lighthearted friendship way in which I was making my comment. I see these boards as informal places where people with similar interests get together to discuss interests they share and, over time, form informal, website-only, harmless familiarity.

Having reflected on your comments and what inspired me, I am truly sorry you were offended. I fully understand your argument, but disagree that what I did was wrong or equates to the brutish behavior that some have shown to you. I do think using the word "admonish" was unfortunate as it has several definitions and tones and that might have set my comment off in a negative way unintentionally.

I understand from your comment that men have harassed you and have used encouragement to smile as part of that harassment. I have seen that behavior and think it is sexists, brutish and crude. I am sorry that you have to deal with that and will stand arm in arm with anyone trying to stop it.

I am also sorry that my sincere compliment and mild form of encouragement seems to have gotten detached from its context, form the entire history of my posting (I think my long posting here consistently shows respect for fellow members) and from - and I'll say it- a moment of reflection that, perhaps, might have caused one to see it was innocent even if you do not see it that way.

I will now remove that type of comment from my postings in the future as I see that it can offend, but felt it important that I defend my comment, its context and its intent.

Sincerely,

FF

 

[LadyBaltimore]

Fading Fast, I really appreciate your response. I understand that the right word choice can make or break the tone and meaning of a statement, and in the specific case of "admonish," I took it as a "reprimand," when you meant it more gently.

On one hand, I realize that many men really don't understand or consider the many sexist connotations of what they see as innocent or even "helpful" comments, just in the same way that as someone who is white, I may not always or immediately understand how someone's comment could be taken as racist (some are obvious, some are less so), because I'm at the opposite end of that spear, if that makes sense. No one understands sexism better than those who its leveraged against (women).

I also think the conversation about women, in the media, is almost incessantly about beauty, and self-esteem, whether in a negative or positive light, than many women like myself are sick of it, and just want to be seen as human beings apart from our facial features, our weight, the texture of our hair, et cetera. I can understand how many might want to look their best in photos, but I sometimes resent how it's always assumed, that as a woman, that how I appear to others is of utmost importance. I really just want to have fun with vintage clothes, my face just happens to be attached to my body that wears those clothes, haha. I also think you're the needle in the haystack if you've also told men to smile, as I have witnessed innumerable women being chided to smile, and never once have I seen a man (except by his mother or girlfriend or wife, or someone close, not a stranger on the internet or in the street) be told he should smile.

In any case, I will refrain from posting any more of my photos in this thread, and let you men get back to the regular programing.

 

[LadyBaltimore]

Fair enough point, in my opinion.

No one has ever told me to smile when I post here. I'd think it was a bit odd. Since we are here to discuss clothes/accessories, smiling is an irrelevance. Posing in such a way to best show off the outfit is relevant, a smile isn't.

I'm sure no offence was meant when FF asked you to smile, so let's all keep this about clothes etc.

P.S. Lady Baltimore, I think your outfits look good. Very European, which is something I like.

Thank you, I really appreciate you admitting that this just isn't, in most cases, something men are ever told, but something that's regularly expected, even demanded, of women.

Like you said, this thread is about the vintage clothing we all share a love for, not about our faces or our bodies, or other physical characteristics...and it's very different thing to tell simply tell someone you like something about them (not offensive at all), than telling them how to be or how to present themselves.

Thanks for your compliment on my outfits! I will from now on, leave this thread to you boys and the lovely Hadley, who I think is the only other woman who's posted here in recent times.

 

[Fading Fast]

LB,

If you would like to see where I posted it, go to "Ask Andy About Clothes" website and look up my prior post (I use Fading Fast over there as well) in the "What are you Wearing Thread" - I encouraged a man who calls himself "Orange Fury" to smile as he did in one picture; whereas in most he didn't.

Most importantly, I would hate this incident to cause you to stop posting here as I think your posts are wonderful contributions to the Golden Era aesthetic of this Forum. To that end, I will refrain from commenting ever on your posts - not in anger or petulance, but so that you won't have to concern yourself with my comments.

Sincerely,

FF

 

[LadyBaltimore]

Eddie, always love your ensembles, you look like you could have just stepped out of a technicolor film at any given moment.

 

[LadyBaltimore]

LB,

If you would like to see where I posted it, go to "Ask Andy About Clothes" website and look up my prior post (I use Fading Fast over there as well) in the "What are you Wearing Thread" - I encouraged a man who calls himself "Orange Fury" to smile as he did in one picture; whereas in most he didn't.

Most importantly, I would hate this incident to cause you to stop posting here as I think your posts are wonderful contributions to the Golden Era aesthetic of this Forum. To that end, I will refrain from commenting ever on your posts - not in anger or petulance, but so that you won't have to concern yourself with my comments.

Sincerely,

FF

Oh no, I believe you, and will take your word for it.

With the exception of telling me to smile, I have never found any of your comments to be in the least offensive, so please don't feel you'd have to tip toe around me (or as I said before, never am I offended by someone simply saying "I like that!" it's only when I'm told "do that with your face/hair/body!" that it rubs me the wrong way, there is a considerable difference). Really though, I can guarantee you it's only a matter of time before someone else tells me my face would look so much better if I smiled, and if I stand up for myself and express why that's offensive and an inappropriate comment to make, most men, whether they publicly say so or not, will just think "what a b****!" and contrary to the impression I might have given, I don't feel comfortable or intend to cause any drama or derailing of a thread's intended subject (as I've already done here). It'd be less troublesome for me just not to post, and I'm fine with that, no worries.

 

[Dreamofgilgamesh]

Is it just me or is anyone else thinking of the "Lovely Girls" competition in Father Ted?

 

[tonypaj]

Oh no, I believe you, and will take your word for it.

With the exception of telling me to smile, I have never found any of your comments to be in the least offensive, so please don't feel you'd have to tip toe around me (or as I said before, never am I offended by someone simply saying "I like that!" it's only when I'm told "do that with your face/hair/body!" that it rubs me the wrong way, there is a considerable difference). Really though, I can guarantee you it's only a matter of time before someone else tells me my face would look so much better if I smiled, and if I stand up for myself and express why that's offensive and an inappropriate comment to make, most men, whether they publicly say so or not, will just think "what a b****!" and contrary to the impression I might have given, I don't feel comfortable or intend to cause any drama or derailing of a thread's intended subject (as I've already done here). It'd be less troublesome for me just not to post, and I'm fine with that, no worries.

I'm happy to read your posts and hear your thinking. It is how I would like my daughter, now 13, to grow up to be.

 

[Big Man]

very casual last week in South America!

I was going to say you have a smile so warm looking it could melt the polar ice cap, but after reading a previous post about comments made to women as being sexist, I will refrain from saying what I was going to say and just say, that's a nice photo.

 

[HudsonHawk]

I was going to say you have a smile so warm looking it could melt the polar ice cap, but after reading a previous post about comments made to women as being sexist, I will refrain from saying what I was going to say and just say, that's a nice photo.

What I was going to say is, if you sit in one of those deck chairs, watch out for the seagulls. Not sure if that's sexist or not though.

 

[Big Man]

Wow. Guess she told us...
I'll keep any (what I may think are) compliments to myself from now on. Just don't need any, out of the blue, sudden scolding...but seems it's often the expected norm here from a few. :tape2:
Now I suppose we'll get another long explanation about how men are such brutes..

I am sure I have probably offended a person or two over they years by a comment made here or there. None of it was intentional. Sometimes things are said with the most sincerity, with absolutely no "hidden meaning" or anything other than as a complement, but are taken in the wrong context. I guess, from my perspective, giving a lady a complement such as "your smile is nice" or "that outfit really complements the color of your eyes" is an age/generational thing. I was always taught it was polite to give a compliment. I never considered it to be sexist, or have any other meaning but just what it was intended - a compliment. However, as I get older, I'm beginning to see that others don't think the same way. Be that right or wrong is immaterial. If the person to who the complement is addressed takes offense from it, it is a true offense from their perspective. It can be a difficult thing to try to bridge that cultural/age/generational gap.

What I can't really understand is why people intentionally work at dressing in a way that is most flattering to themselves (both men and women), and then somehow take offense that they are complemented on the very thing they have worked so hard to pull off. I am confused.

Maybe you are right, HoosierDaddy, maybe I should refrain from making any compliments. On second thought, no, I think I'll just keep on the way I am and get scolded if needed.

 

[Big Man]

What I was going to say is, if you sit in one of those deck chairs, watch out for the seagulls. Not sure if that's sexist or not though.

If I were to sit in one of those deck chairs it would fold up. Hell, If I was on that ship I'd be limited to staying amidships. Too far to port or starboard and it would develop a list. They don't call me "Big Man" for nothing.

Wait a minute. I think I just offended myself ... [huh]

 

[HudsonHawk]

If I were to sit in one of those deck chairs it would fold up. Hell, If I was on that ship I'd be limited to staying amidships. Too far to port or starboard and it would develop a list. They don't call me "Big Man" for nothing.

Wait a minute. I think I just offended myself ... [huh]

I don't think that's on a ship. So you're good.

 

[Bamaboots]

I am sure I have probably offended a person or two over they years by a comment made here or there. None of it was intentional. Sometimes things are said with the most sincerity, with absolutely no "hidden meaning" or anything other than as a complement, but are taken in the wrong context. I guess, from my perspective, giving a lady a complement such as "your smile is nice" or "that outfit really complements the color of your eyes" is an age/generational thing. I was always taught it was polite to give a compliment. I never considered it to be sexist, or have any other meaning but just what it was intended - a compliment. However, as I get older, I'm beginning to see that others don't think the same way. Be that right or wrong is immaterial. If the person to who the complement is addressed takes offense from it, it is a true offense from their perspective. It can be a difficult thing to try to bridge that cultural/age/generational gap.

What I can't really understand is why people intentionally work at dressing in a way that is most flattering to themselves (both men and women), and then somehow take offense that they are complemented on the very thing they have worked so hard to pull off. I am confused.

Maybe you are right, HoosierDaddy, maybe I should refrain from making any compliments. On second thought, no, I think I'll just keep on the way I am and get scolded if needed.

Big Man, couldn't agree with you more. As one who grew up being scolded or punished for not using ma'am or sir when addressing or being addressed by "my elders" , I find it nearly impossible to stop, even though most of those I use the terms towards now are much younger than myself. Plus, I find more and more people that seem offended when I use the terms. Also, I find some women don't understand when I stand while being introduced to them or hold a door open for them. Just the way I was raised and too damn old to stop now, or care if they're offended.

I've never understood those who take offense with polite compliments or suggestions. Maybe I've spent too many years in the south. Oh wait, that's not possible.