WARNING! Controversial poll ahead,...

[adem]

I have learnt a lot about this issue from this website..

www.answersingenesis.org

I could type all night about this but I wont, I hurt my finger bowling.

 

[Caledonia]

I'm with the scientific lobby. Voted evolution, but must abstain from the accidental design bit of the allotted selection. Evolution-accidental-evolution. The design part indicates some other individual power at work and I'm still pondering that. So far I haven't reached a conclusion, and I am definitely not going to bore you all with a badly thought out philosopical meandering about universal energy. Not today anyway. I won't repeat all the science that has gone before. But one thing about mutation. Significantly mutated organisms tend not to survive because the mutation has accidently gone too far, and either the organism can't survive in the existing available habitat, or can't survive as a functioning organism. And this kind of mutation would tend to occur within a single generation, or over only a very few generations. Therefore a significantly mutated organism falls out of the evolutionary chain. Or so I understand. Good thread.

 

[Mike K.]

I think there need to be some clarification

Regarding the accidental aspect of evolution...
Natural selection, as far as we can see/test, is a random process (i.e. accidental). With all the genetic variation between individuals, it is purely by chance which individuals will end up with the traits best adapted to a particular environment. What "works" at one time or place will not necessarily hold in a different time/place. Despite the random nature of the natural selection process, evolution overall is quite directed to the preservation of those traits which confer a survival advantage. Hence evolution is not random, but the process by which it works is random. Those of us who believe in a higher Power might also argue that what we view as random/accident in the natural selection process in not actually random at all, but instead driven by an unseen (and scientifically untestable) Divine hand.

Ladies and gents, this is a very interesting thread and I've enjoyed reading all of your comments & opinions. It's refreshing to know we can debate such touchy topics in a civilized manner. With the rest of the world in such a state of turmoil, I often wonder if humans truly are the more advanced species. At least here at the FL we appear to be.

Cheers,
Mike

 

[Miss_Bella_Hell]

Ladies and gents, this is a very interesting thread and I've enjoyed reading all of your comments & opinions. It's refreshing to know we can debate such touchy topics in a civilized manner. With the rest of the world in such a state of turmoil, I often wonder if humans truly are the more advanced species. At least here at the FL we appear to be.

Cheers,
Mike

:eusa_clap Couldn't agree more.

I may be one of the more extreme FLers, but I am an atheist and do not believe in creationism. Even at the very beginning (ie Genesis). Just because we don't understand something yet doesn't mean that we need to default to god. In that vein I take a lesson from the Greeks and Romans, who had gods for all natural phenomena, feelings, etc thay could not explain.

 

[Briscoeteque]

Regarding the accidental aspect of evolution...
Natural selection, as far as we can see/test, is a random process (i.e. accidental). With all the genetic variation between individuals, it is purely by chance which individuals will end up with the traits best adapted to a particular environment. What "works" at one time or place will not necessarily hold in a different time/place. Despite the random nature of the natural selection process, evolution overall is quite directed to the preservation of those traits which confer a survival advantage. Hence evolution is not random, but the process by which it works is random. Those of us who believe in a higher Power might also argue that what we view as random/accident in the natural selection process in not actually random at all, but instead driven an unseen (and scientifically untestable) Divine hand.

Ladies and gents, this is a very interesting thread and I've enjoyed reading all of your comments & opinions. It's refreshing to know we can debate such touchy topics in a civilized manner. With the rest of the world in such a state of turmoil, I often wonder if humans truly are the more advanced species. At least here at the FL we appear to be.

Cheers,
Mike

Exactly, you said what I was trying to say but shorter, better, and with less stupid analogies.

 

[scotrace]

People with Turners are sterile anyway.

Turner Syndrome is only beginning to be understood. It is becoming apparent that not all girls afflicted are sterile.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

...evolution explains how I got here, the Bible explains why I am here. I believe in one God and I accept that evolution is a part of His creative handiwork.

Agreed! I've never understood why some folks think that one precludes the other.

.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

But to this very day, [evolution] only remains theory and we have yet to discover the "missing link".

You and science have differing conceptions of the term, "theory". In science, every single explanation is called a theory. The fact that the moon affects tides is called a theory by scientists. The fact that plate tectonics causes earthquakes is called a theory by science.

Scientists are constantly testing theories by looking for inconsistencies in them; they seek and test alternative explanations for the phenomena that gave rise to the theories. Some theories have fewer inconsistencies than others; the ones with the fewest inconsistencies, and which have not been negated by tested alternative explanations, are the strongest.

Scientists have been testing evolution for nearly a century and a half. The overwhelming majority of them have concluded that evolution is an EXTREMELY strong theory. So strong, that those of us who are not scientists (or creationists) would call it a fact.

.

 

[adem]

Those of us who believe in a higher Power might also argue that what we view as random/accident in the natural selection process in not actually random at all, but instead driven by an unseen (and scientifically untestable) Divine hand.

I dont want to worship a God who uses millions of years of death and suffering to bring about man, and also decides to lie to us in his word. (The Bible)

Is death the result of mans sin ? or is it Gods idea of a world that is "very good" ?

 

[Marc Chevalier]

I dont want to worship a God who uses millions of years of death and suffering to bring about man ...

Neither do I ... but if that's the way that God works, then I guess we're stuck with Him unless we invent a more palatable replacement.

.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Is death the result of mans sin ?

If so, then I'm grateful to sinfulness for bringing death about. Who would want to live around here forever and ever? I'll be happy with 90 years at most.

.

 

[Serial Hero]

Let me start the discussion by first stating that I am a Christian and an evolutionary biologist. What? That can't be you say. Well, let me explain.

Evolution is a fact of life. I laugh everytime I hear somebody ask whether one "believes" in evolution. It is not a matter of faith, hence it is not a matter of belief. Asking whether one believes in evolution is like asking if you believe that grass is green. If anyone doubts whether evolution happens, just look around. Do you own a pet dog? Ever had a flu shot?

Here's how evolution works (for those less educated on the topic). And I don't mean to sound condescending to anyone. Let's say you get an infection. Each one of those little bacteria is different, just like you and me and all the FL members. One or two of those bacteria just so happen to have the gene (DNA) that makes them immune to the antibiotics that the doc just gave you. Well, the antibiotics kill off all of your infection...except those couple of resistant bacteria. Guess what? They then reproduce. Now you have an entire population of resistant bacteria. Natural selection has weeded out the bacteria and left only those able to survive the medicinal onslaught. They in turn have reproduced to pass along their DNA to offspring. They have evolved. That's it in a nutshell. That is evolution and one of the ways it works. Ever hear about resistant staph infections? How about all those nasties that penicillin used to kill back in the 1940s?

Okay, on to religion. While science can tell you how you got here, it cannot explain why. Therein lies the big difference between evolution and religion. Science cannot empirically test matters of faith. It is faith that we rely on to give us the "why" answers to life. It is for this reason, that Creationism cannot and should not be taught in a science classroom...it cannot be tested because it lies outside the realm of science. From the Christian perspective I think it should be taught, but at home or in church is the better place. Here's something interesting. According to my faith, the earth was created in 6 days (and on the 7th He rested). Something most people have forgotten, including myself until a recent bible study, the Book of Genesis (especially the first chapter) comes directly from the Hebrew faith and it is a POEM. Just read it, see the paragraph structure, hear the rhythm. That opening chapter is not meant to be taken literally...no seven 24hr periods. It's a poem; it's symbolic. Regardless, nobody knows how life began. Different religions each have different explanations, as does science. What we do know is that, regardless of how we got here, Earth and its inhabitants are not static - they are and have been constantly changing. God must have devised some earthly process (evolution) so life can keep up with the changes.

Evolution and science lie in two entirely different realms. One relies on empirical testing, the other on faith. Belief in one does NOT preclude acceptance of the other. The two are mutually exclusive, therefore, you can accept both. Take the time to actually read "Origin of Species" or some other evolutionary biology text. Perhaps you will find, as I did, that evolution is such an intricately magnificent process that it likely could not have arisen spontaneously in the primordial oceans; it is evidence of a higher Power. Also take time to read the Bible, Torah, or other book of faith. Regardless of whether you are a person of faith, there is much to be learned in these works.

The bottom line is this...evolution explains how I got here, the Bible explains why I am here. I believe in one God and I accept that evolution is a part of His creative handiwork.

I completely agree with this, you just say it better than I can.

 

[adem]

I would just like to point out that since the word "proven" is being thrown around a lot, natural selection is a proven fact. (A creationist, the chemist/zoologist Edward Blyth (1810—1873), wrote about it in 1835—7, before Darwin) We can wittiness is it with out own eyes. We can also observe that it is an information losing process, same with mutations (some can be positive, but its still a loss of information) Therefore the whole idea of "goo to you via the zoo" is actually proven wrong. The reason an alternative hasn't been found is freely admitted by Professor Richard Lewontin..

"We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door."

 

[adem]

If so, then I'm grateful to sinfulness for bringing death about. Who would want to live around here forever and ever? I'll be happy with 90 years at most.

.

of course you wouldnt and neither would I, because this isnt the original world God created, it suffering the effects of sin. And quite frankly its a horrible world.

 

[jamespowers]

Neither do I ... but if that's the way that God works, then I guess we're stuck with Him unless we invent a more palatable replacement.

.

I refer you to St. Thomas Aquinas for that answer. (Hint: God is to man as man is to an ant.)
Put simply, you have omnipresent confused with omnipotent. Remember the old phrase "God sees the truth but waits?" God only intervenes when it is absolutely necessary. The way the world works on a human level was established by man not God. Man is responsible for what goes on here due to free will. I think of God as omnipresent for that reason. He is always there but doesn't intervene unless asked or at a crucial juncture. Without free will as a concept you would have the Greco-Roman Gods that were Omnipotent. NO matter what, they were in control of everything.
Just a few thoughts of mine on the suffering of Man.

Regards,

J

 

[Miss_Bella_Hell]

I dont want to worship a God who uses millions of years of death and suffering to bring about man, and also decides to lie to us in his word. (The Bible)

Is death the result of mans sin ? or is it Gods idea of a world that is "very good" ?

No one does, I hope. But that is an atheist/theist discussion, and isn't necessary in this thread. As an atheist, I have heard that argument 1000000 times and it never helps, ever.

 

[scotrace]

Hey! Major Nick!

Lay off the sauce!

 

[Section10]

Creation of course. I believe there can be some adaptations within a species over time, but creation by and large makes the most sense to me. I wouldn't hold anyone to a fundamentalist interpretation of the Genesis event, but I'm more comfortable believing someone who was there at the time and even claims to have done it than the folks who are trying to piece it all together many thousands of years after the fact.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I have a complete and total inability to ascribe to any notion of supernatural powers. Therefore creation is out (i know, people will argue that God is a natural power). I also have issues with the soul, and any postulated meaning for life. It smacks of man trying desparately to drag himself out of the animal kingdom. Life is life. Nothing more. You live, then you die. no reason for it. Just like all other living things.

I'm an evolution man. Total, random, accidental evolution.

bk

 

[herringbonekid]

^
^
^
^what he said.

Baron when you get back to the UK we should meet up for a drink. i have a feeling we'll get along well.