WARNING! Controversial poll ahead,...

[Strider]

Creation. That's all I'll say.

 

[Mike K.]

There is no known natural process for generating new, more complex traits.

How about DNA mutations or gene flow??

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

There is nothing accidental about evolution, and I don't understand why people keep demanding that there is. Mutations happen in genes all of the time. You have mutated quite a bit, and a few base pairs in your genes are aready different then a few others. Most of the time these mutations are useless and don't really change a thing. Some have big changes. Sometimes these changes really help a species better adapt to an enviroment. The animals that are better suited to an enviroment tend to survive more to pass on their genes. What's accidental about that? It's something that's purpetually happening, and it's something that works remarkably well. Calling it accidental is like saying it's all random. There's a reason why glitches happen when DNA gets replicated, there's a reason why these changes determine traits, and there's a reason certain traits are favored in different enviroments. Sure, we all could have been created. But every one of our senses could constantly be decieved. Science deals with natural phenomonon by observing nature and drawing conclusions bases on that.

Also, there is no real difference between macro and micro evolution. It's just scale. A 'species' is a label slapped on to animals to group them into a system. An fish didn't wake up and become a frog. A fish was concieved once that had genes that just happened to lay the blueprints for possible lungs, and it just so happens that these genes, being favored over time, became prevelent enough to fill an available niche for survival. Evolution is this one theory that makes people so uncomfortable, so when they don't know enough about it, they dismiss it. You can believe in God, and you can believe in Creationism, but evolution is a theory that best explains a natural phenomon. The wallet that fell out of my jacket today didn't float in the air because there was something wrong with the theory of gravity.

Why can't I just not lose stuff all of the time instead of studying all of this?

But what do you say? Mere chance evolution then?
It is my understanding that most significantly mutated organisms will simply die. Mutations severe enough to cause significant changes to a member of a given species are invariably lethal. So these genetically differant creatures can not reproduce and cause a leap from say,...fish to amphibian.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Very interesting discussion so far. I guess my own opinion is a terribly pragmatic one.

Given the fact that I'm nearsighted, pot-bellied, flat-footed and suffer from excruciating sciatica, there's no way I could be anything but an accident. An intelligent designer couldn't possibly do such a slipshod job.

 

[Hondo]

Evolution? Accidental design?

Some of you are really interesting, I mean your posts, well done gents and ladies.

This is a touchy subject I’m hardly qualified to explain or give an opinion.
I believe in a higher power, know good and bad. Were all here for a reason, that’s why some of us (humans) live long lives and others die so young. I have face death many times, had my butt saved for some reason, only my maker knows why, cause I’ve made some whoppers, mistakes along the way, then later I’m slapped into reality “Why did you do that?” its like life is a constant learning processes, not to be graded but to live for some purposes, a meaning. I don’t know what it is.

I put down Evolution (I don’t know what accidental design means unless you mean aliens from another world) I just think were all water and dust as humans, once were dead, were dead. I’ve read and known many older folks once they reach an age that’s near death, they become more religious, I guess worrying about meeting their maker, but they shouldn’t be, if you live a good and half way honest life, nothing to worry about, but if you have guilt for some of the things you did, well its understandable to worry.
I always say learn to forgive, you can get angry, but learn through time to forgive and forget, carry on your life as well as possible.
But getting back to the topic “Evolution” sure we evolved as a species, just like all animals or mammals. I hope I’m making some sense her; again once you’re dead your just water and dust, gone forever. I think about so many of the actors, actresses from yesterday and how they die young or grow old, No matter, you live a full life because once you and I are gone, that’s it.
I apologize for going on so much.

 

[Lincsong]

Devolution?

How about the theory of devolution? That man has reached it's apex and is slowly devolving into apes? Maybe we aren't descended from apes, but apes are descended from man?

 

[Lincsong]

Well Ms. Magneto, my avatar is actually how I look after having had "one too many" as they say, and thank you for asking. lol

I thought that avatar was how Hugh Hefner really looks without makeup.lol

 

[Benny Holiday]

How about DNA mutations or gene flow??

Mike, I don't see those creating new genetic information that wasn't there before.

I should also add (and respectfully, because I enjoy reading your scientific standpoint although we differ in opinions) that Genesis 1-11 is read as a literal text and not as poetry, according to Hebrew scholars (see J Sidlow Baxter's Explore The Book Vol 1.

 

[Lauren]

The Institute for Creation Research
Some Christians might want to check out this site if they haven't already.
And here's some articles by Chuck Missler, who I really admire as being a logical thinker.

Not trying to start any arguments or anything, I just wanted to put those out there for those interested.

 

[Viola]

I believe in evolution, as I believe in free choice. I also believe in G-d. I also believe that Genesis has meaning, but not all interpretations of it are correct.

 

[Briscoeteque]

But what do you say? Mere chance evolution then?
It is my understanding that most significantly mutated organisms will simply die. Mutations severe enough to cause significant changes to a member of a given species are invariably lethal. So these genetically differant creatures can not reproduce and cause a leap from say,...fish to amphibian.

But 'fish' and 'amphibian' are our words we gave to animals to make it easy to distinguish and talk about them. There are fish with lungs. Like I said, things don't make this leap overnight. Species is just a term we use to group animals together to make them easier to study. Hybredizations happen all of the time between species. I briefly studied the fishes of the family Cichlidae in the African rift lakes. The various species interbreed ALL of the time, and often times produce viable offspring. Macroevolution is conducted on a scale of 'millions' of years. How long has there been history? Ten thousand, tops? A million years is an incredible thing to fathom, and even more so the amount of generations contained withen those million years. A big change would be lethal. But gradually, over huge periods of time, these mutations can compound, and do when it becomes benifical to do so, these benfifical genes get passed on more then less benificial genes. It's not chance. Incredible amounts of mutation is occuring everyday. Some of it is inside all of us individually. Some cells in your hand may have different DNA than those in your lungs. What's so random about some of these mutations being benificial? I suppose you can say the themselves mutations are random, but when mutations occur as often as they do, it's bound something is going to come of it. You yourself contain some cells with 'lethal' mutations. You immune system realizes this and kills them, as these things tend to cause lots of problems. But lets say one, out of these billions of mutations all over the world every day, got past this. And one of an even smaller percentage didn't cause cancer or something like it. And one of a far smaller percentage of those were actually benificial. But they happen so frequently that no matter how small that percentage is, it's going to add up, even if it's gradual. Evolution is science. You can disagree with it, but there is no denying that it explains phenomona remarkably well using strictly natural observations as the basis. And that is the scope of science. I'm not saying ID or creationism isn't true. It could be. But it is not science, and it is not the scientific way to look at the world.

Edit: There are really no things as 'new' genes. DNA is a sequence of four base pairs. I have the same base pairs as bacteria, all living things on earth possess these same four pairs. It's the order that these base pairs are in that makes new genes. Often times when DNA replicates itself, it changes one or two of these base pairs around in an order (usually a whole lot more). Genes are like words, the base pairs the letters. In this case, there's only four letters, and the words are incredibly long. Changing one or two of these letters around makes a whole new word, but it is still a somewhat minor change on the chemical level.

Also, evolution in terms of biology begins with DNA. Abiogenisis, which is organic molecules coming from inorganic ones, is a whole different theory, and the big bang a whole different theory on top of that. Evolution just tracks the various forms DNA has taken. Just because you believe in evolution doesn't mean you have to deny that God exists, or deny that God has a hand in everday life. God could have directed these mutations, who knows, but there is no way to naturally test this and it has no place in science.

I'm sure I'm explaining this all very poorly, because while I'm studying to be a biologist, biochemistry is not my thing by any means.

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

Some of you are really interesting, I mean your posts, well done gents and ladies.

This is a touchy subject I’m hardly qualified to explain or give an opinion.
I believe in a higher power, know good and bad. Were all here for a reason, that’s why some of us (humans) live long lives and others die so young. I have face death many times, had my butt saved for some reason, only my maker knows why, cause I’ve made some whoppers, mistakes along the way, then later I’m slapped into reality “Why did you do that?” its like life is a constant learning processes, not to be graded but to live for some purposes, a meaning. I don’t know what it is.

I put down Evolution (I don’t know what accidental design means unless you mean aliens from another world) I just think were all water and dust as humans, once were dead, were dead. I’ve read and known many older folks once they reach an age that’s near death, they become more religious, I guess worrying about meeting their maker, but they shouldn’t be, if you live a good and half way honest life, nothing to worry about, but if you have guilt for some of the things you did, well its understandable to worry.
I always say learn to forgive, you can get angry, but learn through time to forgive and forget, carry on your life as well as possible.
But getting back to the topic “Evolution” sure we evolved as a species, just like all animals or mammals. I hope I’m making some sense her; again once you’re dead your just water and dust, gone forever. I think about so many of the actors, actresses from yesterday and how they die young or grow old, No matter, you live a full life because once you and I are gone, that’s it.
I apologize for going on so much.

Maybe you should have voted for both, but perhaps not for the reason that I included that option? There seems to be a slight bit of confusion as to what those options are exactly. Please forgive me for my oversight if it is indeed an oversight on my part.
Let me then now clarify somewhat if I may.
If you vote for creation, it is simply that.
Evolution accidental design, means no creator or creative force, just mere chance caused all life in the universe.
Both means creation of species as they are by an intelligent Creator, (i.e. a fish is a fish, a monkey is a monkey and that is what they will always be) but with subtle changes over time to adapt to their environment.

 

[LaMedicine]

The bottom line is this...evolution explains how I got here, the Bible explains why I am here. I believe in one God and I accept that evolution is a part of His creative handiwork.

You've hit the nail, and your explanation is as concise and explicit as can be, couldn't be stated any better, and as a medical doctor, I agree wholeheartedly:eusa_clap .

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

Yes, some change, or "evolution" must occur it seems, within the confines of a given species. Species will adapt to their environment over time in order to survive. This is a proven fact, but is often misconstrued to support the Darwinian theory of evolution minus the Intelligent Creator factor.
To put it simply, a distinct species can never change it's genetic structure so as to become an entirely different species.

I think must clarify my statement about genetic structure. It would have been more correct of me to say that a distinct species can not change the number of chromosomes in it's genetic make up.

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

I thought that avatar was how Hugh Hefner really looks without makeup.lol

It is a remarkable resemblance, now that I look at it again! lol

 

[Hondo]

Maybe you should have voted for both, but perhaps not for the reason that I included that option? There seems to be a slight bit of confusion as to what those options are exactly. Please forgive me for my oversight if it is indeed an oversight on my part.
Let me then now clarify somewhat if I may.
If you vote for creation, it is simply that.
Evolution accidental design, means no creator or creative force, just mere chance caused all life in the universe.
Both means creation of species as they are by an intelligent Creator, (i.e. a fish is a fish, a monkey is a monkey and that is what they will always be) but with subtle changes over time to adapt to their environment.

Very good Major, no problem, yeah both, its been a while since anthropology classes, I've been known to go off the deep end at times, Thanks

 

[Samsa]

I voted for a combination of both ideas. To be more specific, I believe:

1. The Triune God created the universe and all that occupies it ex nihilo.

2. Evolution is a tried and tested theory.

My Church (the Catholic one) teaches that our first parents were Adam and Eve (cf. Pope Pius XII, Humani Generis, no. 37) and that all men descended from them. Outside of believing aformentioned piece of doctrine, I leave the particulars of micro/macro evolution to the scientists and polemiscists on both sides of the fence.

In the end, I don't really care about the specifics - it's not going to change what I do on the weekend.

 

[Briscoeteque]

I think must clarify my statement about genetic structure. It would have been more correct of me to say that a distinct species can not change the number of chromosomes in it's genetic make up.

People with Downs Syndrome, Turners Syndrome, and other syndromes have differing numbers of chromosomes than other people, and they are still considered Homo sapiens, and they usually come from people without the condition. People with Turners are sterile anyway. Also, some men possess two Y chromosomes, making their sex genes XYY. This does not affect fertility at all and results in a completely healthy human male. Some people have 45 chromosomes, and some have 47. They may or may not suffer from an illness, but they're still people.

 

[HistWardrobe]

where's the conflict.

I voted for both.

I fail to see why the theory of evolution is an inherent challenge to the existence of God. No reason why evolution couldn't be part of His grand design. In fact, the opening bits of Genesis talk about the creation of various life forms in Darwinian order -- critters in the sea, critters in the air, critters on land, and then MAN. (snerk snerk, and then WOMAN, so I guess we're the most evolved, eh!)

What bugs me is that many evolutionists are just as dogmatic about the **theory** of evolution as the hardshell creationists. The Scopes trial was about open mindedness versus dogma. The same conflict today would be dogma vs dogma. It's a dogma eat dogma world out there.

My own view? In the case of many species, some sort of evolutionary process is documentable. But not all species. I think it's clearly part of the picture but that doesn't mean it's the whole picture.

Is it evolution accidental? Define accidental. Usually natural selection is adaptive. The critters whose coloration makes them stand out against their backgrounds are more noticeable to predators and get eaten. The critters that have good natural camoflage are less likely to get eaten and more likely to survive to breed. Could this be pre-ordained by a supreme being? Don't see why not.

 

[pablocham]

How about the theory of devolution? That man has reached it's apex and is slowly devolving into apes? Maybe we aren't decended from apes, but apes are decscended from man?

I accept that as truth.