Von Ribbentrop's Watch

[cookie]

Fascinating story...http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/expatlife/7990230/Von-Ribbentrops-watch.html

 

[filfoster]

Does anybody really know what time it is?

Great story and a stroke of luck. Pretty sure the folks at Nuremburg thought of Von Ribbentrop as a 'first division Nazi'. He was pretty high in the hanging order wasn't he? First team? The pact with Stalin would have been enough for his varsity letter.

 

[Phantomfixer]

I would think that the kids sitting under a leaky roof wouldn't care where the money came from. But a cool story and make for a good play. Hope it does well.

 

[Vintage lover]

Very interesting story, I would of considered donating it to a respectable museum if I didn't keep it locked in a safe.

 

[CopperNY]

very neat story.

the hardcore watch collectors are still not 100% convinced on the provenance though. they can't seem to find verification of the Sotheby's evaluation and Longines (who have not commented) is known for their immaculate record keeping regarding original buyers. a lesser point was that the case would more likely have been engraved on the outside.

i'm interested to see how it plays out. fascinating none the less.

 

[filfoster]

Engraving

very neat story.

the hardcore watch collectors are still not 100% convinced on the provenance though. they can't seem to find verification of the Sotheby's evaluation and Longines (who have not commented) is known for their immaculate record keeping regarding original buyers. a lesser point was that the case would more likely have been engraved on the outside.

i'm interested to see how it plays out. fascinating none the less.

I'm not a watch collector but this detail seems important. What's the purpose of an engraving no one but the repairman can see? It's unlikely it was a presentation watch if the engraving was hidden and in 1930, with only a hundred or so deputies in the Reichstag, not a majority, the Nazis weren't spending a lot of time handing out fancy watches to anyone, particularly prospective members, which raises another point. Isn't it odd he had it engraved with a swastika TWO YEARS before he joined the Nazi party (May, 1932, per Widipedia and also 'The Road To War', Richard J. Evans, p. 630)?

Another point: Weigh in Germanophiles: Isn't the custom to style the 'v' for 'von' as a lower case letter-it's not an actual name? It would have been 'JvR'. I've read he wasn't a real 'von' anyway (adopted by an aunt to get it, technically not valid to convey the honorific), so maybe he didn't know.(Of course I'm kidding-he wouldn't have done his own engraving!)
For certain, Mr. Marks has a real story and a nice looking vintage watch.

 

[filfoster]

The Wrong Time

I did some internet sleuthing and found this:
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Got+t...ng:+Laurence+Marks+wearing+the...-a0188605908

Slightly different story in at least two particulars: 1.) The engraving is described as being on the back of the case.
2. The mongram is described as "JvR".

What is still not logical is a swastika and the 1930 date for a man who was not a Nazi until 1932. Without more convincing provenance, that would be enough to scare many potential buyers, if it were ever offered for sale. It's possible a well-heeled, 1930-dues-paying Nazi, sharing a similar monogram "JvR" might have fancied a swell ticker.
The swastika might have been later added by the owner, after the date but that would be a stretch-why?.
The story relates that it came back from Switzerland that it was 'genuine'. That might mean it is a genuine Longines, not genuine bling off the wrist of the late Reichs Foreign Minister.

 

[filfoster]

Your time's a little fast

There's a lively thread on this on a forum dedicated to watch collectors:
http://forums.watchuseek.com/f11/von-ribbentrops-watch-found-449127.html

This
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...zi-watch-inspired-new-play.html#ixzz0zWmx8yFg

contains an interesting version in Mr. Marks' own words:
"With a watchmaker's precision he removed the hinged back from the watch, handed me his watchmaker's eyeglass, and said: 'Look. Well, what do you see?' What I saw were the initials JVR.
'It's not uncommon to have an old watch engraved, is it?' I asked.
'With a swastika?' said the watch repairer.
There it was. Right beneath the initials was a small elegantly engraved swastika, under which was the date, 1930."

Well, that's new. The 'hinged back'. That still leaves the mystery of the swastika paired with the 1930 date. Some other JVR or JvR? Even with all the 'shadows', if the Longines records were disclosed it could all be 'real' and as Mr. Marks believes.
There is a lot of inexact reportage here that makes it hard to know what the watch really looks like. The photos which purport to show von Ribbentrop wearing the watch, and Mr. Marks also, are inconclusive on enlargement. They are similar but too much detail is lost.
I am reminded of advice from an old friend who has collected miitaria for decades: "Don't be a believer." Well, at least not for any princely sums.

 

[Tomasso]

the hardcore watch collectors are still not 100% convinced on the provenance though. they can't seem to find verification of the Sotheby's evaluation and Longines (who have not commented) is known for their immaculate record keeping regarding original buyers.

Yep....as it stands....it's just a story.

 

[filfoster]

Time to stop

I may have gotten a bit carried away.

 

[Edward]

You know what, if the provenance can be proven, I'd love to see this sold at a high profile auction for a Jewish charity (or one of the many other groups stigmatised and persecuted by the Nazis). If a contemporary Nazi sympathiser wanted to buy it, they'd have to stomach giving a serious wodge of cash to groups they hated. Why not put "Nazi money" to a good use - nice way to turn the tables, they'd be the ones being exploited here.

On a side note, part of me wonders whether Von Ribbentrop himself might not approve... he was one of several top Nazis at Nuremberg who, shortly before his death, converted to evangelical Christianity, tended to by US Army Chaplain Henry Gerecke (fascinating story about Gerecke's work with these most criminal of human beings during their last days, the book The Cross and the Swastika - not sure if it's still in print, but if you're into the religion bag, it's an interesting story, raising very pertinent questions about the nature of forgiveness and so on). That being the case (I don't presume to put myself in the position of judging the veracity of his conversion), perhaps he might see this as some small way to make a gesture of reconciliation, perhaps?

The play would be interesting, I'd like to see that. If a film version was maded and proved a big enough hit (I'm seeing something semi-fictionalised, set over a long period of time, flashbacks from the present day in the auction room - think The Red Violin), it could certainly raise the value of the watch however genuine it may or may not be, which would only further benefit any future sale for charity.

Swastika aside, it is a rather beautiful timepiece - I'd love one in a goldtone for daily use. I suspect even one not owned by (for want of a better word) a "celebrity" of infamy would be rather beyond my pocket, alas.

 

[The Lonely Navigator]

The 'v' should be lower case.

 

[filfoster]

Blood relics

I have taken my von Goering egg timer off ebay-just learned that he did not have the 'von' and the 'China' markings are all wrong! There will be no play or even a short story.

Trivia: Ludendorff is often named as 'von Ludendorff' and he did not have the 'von' either. The Kaiser didn't really like him very much, I have read. He got the Pour Le Merite and the Iron Cross Grand Cross but no Black Eagle or Grand Cross Red Eagle that would have brought him the 'von' he didn't get from Mom or Dad.

 

[CopperNY]

ok, i'm embarrassed now.

there is no watch, it's only a play:

http://www.oxfordplayhouse.com/show/?eventid=1479

 

[filfoster]

Watch: the play

ok, i'm embarrassed now.

there is no watch, it's only a play:

http://www.oxfordplayhouse.com/show/?eventid=1479

CopperNY, I think you were right the first time: The two newspaper links clearly describe an actual watch that inspired a play.
The play is certifiably real. The watch, perhaps less so.

From the first cited UKtelegraph post:

"Maurice Gran finally suggested writing a play about the dilemma: what does a Jew do with a Nazi watch, particularly if he needs the money?

"I immediately could envisage what a good play this would make and after three or more years of discussion we wrote Von Ribbentrop’s Watch," says Marks. "What else could we call it?"

The Daily Mail story linked in post 8 also describes a real watch, complete with photos.

If the whole watch episode was concocted for publicity, well then, that's another very sad matter.

 

[W4ASZ]

Great story and a stroke of luck. Pretty sure the folks at Nuremburg thought of Von Ribbentrop as a 'first division Nazi'. He was pretty high in the hanging order wasn't he? First team? The pact with Stalin would have been enough for his varsity letter.

Won the Hoistman Trophy, he did.

 

[filfoster]

He got a trip and a tie

Won the Hoistman Trophy, he did.

lol lol :eusa_clap

 

[W4ASZ]

Watch de Watch ---

A less-than-enthused commentary on the BBC radio play from two years ago :

http://blog.harryheuser.com/2008/11/von-ribbentrops-watch-thoughts-on.html

The radio play appeared at the 70th anniversary of Kristallnacht.

The stage play appears at the 70th anniversary of the decisive confrontation of the Battle of Britain.

And, for God sakes, it's a comedy.

 

[Edward]

It would actually be very British to write a dark comedy about that sort of thing. The Brits (much like we Irish, for that matter) often excel at using comedy to say the very most serious of things. It's a device I enjoy seeing done well, though it doesn't always travel well culturally speaking.

 

[W4ASZ]

It would actually be very British to write a dark comedy about that sort of thing. The Brits (much like we Irish, for that matter) often excel at using comedy to say the very most serious of things. It's a device I enjoy seeing done well, though it doesn't always travel well culturally speaking.

The commenter in 2008 didn't see (or, rather, hear) it that way. It would not be fair for me to agree or disagree with him, as I have not taken in the play. Your point is well taken, but Mr. Marks' uninformed status as to Ribbentrop's place in the Nazi food chain is disturbing.