Vintage versus modern ´quality´

[Tomasso]

I have a pile of pre- and post automated manufacture mechanical watches and it is no different there.

Probably not the best comparison as the quality of timepieces coming out of the workrooms of the top Swiss makers (PP, JLC, VC, etc...) has not declined in the least over the years, in fact some would say that it has actually improved. There is no component of their manufacture whose quality is simply unavailable today as is the case with felt quality in hat making.

That said, I don't think that the quality of felt used by a top maker like Optimo is vastly inferior to the stuff used by the top makers back in the day. Aficionados (in all fields of interest) have a tendency to overstate a relatively small gap in quality to the point of night/day.

 

[Huertecilla]

anecdotal

See my post above. The info is all over this forum (not one thread).

In that case my question is more valid than I thought, hoped as the forum is on this subject mainly anecdotal.
The opinion is everywhere but the supporting fact is not.
Concrete quantifying observations like about machine tacks versus invisible ones or number of stitches, the line etc. are RARE and even than hardly ever supported with a photo.

A simple sticky would suffice and if that would be politically desireable, then any mention of brand or model can be left out.

 

[Huertecilla]

There ain't no money in it, so it hasn't been done. Unless you are ready to fund it, it won't be done...

Well, that is rather cynical.
There are very usefull guides on here without any financial interest.

 

[Lefty]

or you could buy a few hats and see for yourself

 

[Huertecilla]

The discussion of quality in vintage vs. new is a frequent recurrent theme on the fedora lounge. Long time participants will be hesitant to dive back in for another round. If you can focus your query it might be easier to help direct you.

Here is a visual comparison between a modern Borsalino Como and a vintage (1950s) vintage Borsalino "Misto." As most of our vintage purchases are informed by looking at photographs rather than seller descriptions, this type of comparison of the facts can be useful.

Thanks for the visual.

As to my question: that was simple. Has it been done? A factual comparison, a foundation for the omnipresent opinion that vintage was better.
The topic asking if the modern Stetsons are that bad was the direct reason for my asking as that thread did not provide illustrated fact either.

 

[Huertecilla]

or you could buy a few hats and see for yourself

That covers this whole forum....

 

[Huertecilla]

Probably not the best comparison as the quality of timepieces coming out of the workrooms of the top Swiss makers (PP, JLC, VC, etc...) has not declined in the least over the years, in fact some would say that it has actually improved. There is no component of their manufacture whose quality is simply unavailable today as is the case with felt quality in hat making.

That said, I don't think that the quality of felt used by a top maker like Optimo is vastly inferior to the stuff used by the top makers back in the day. Aficionados (in all fields of interest) have a tendency to overstate a relatively small gap in quality to the point of night/day.

I have several JLC, GPs and GS models both pre and post modern and there is a HUGE generic difference underlining the need to define quality.
The post modern ones have larger tolerances but are all within spec. The highest level is thus less high but spares fit from the bin and the average level is higher. There can thus a case be made far either of them having superior ' quality'.
That as a side step.

Your observation about the relativity of afficionado OCD is to the point. My question is simply to found it with fact.

 

[viclip]

...Concrete quantifying observations like about machine tacks versus invisible ones or number of stitches, the line etc. are RARE and even than hardly ever supported with a photo...

Within the past few days a disappointed member posted shots of a recently acquired custom hat. Even to my untrained eye the workmanship left much to be desired, I especially recall the stitching. I've forgotten which thread the photos are in, perhaps someone can direct accordingly

 

[Huertecilla]

The Borsalino modern Como versus vintage Misto is what I mean. One can take the brand/model out of the equasion and simply illustrate the fact of life: that rationalisiation for profit, manufacturing at a price has factual product consequences.

A stunner like the 'Misto' is a future buy. For when I have more savvy about WHAT the fabled difference IS.

 

[gtdean48]

Well, that is rather cynical.
There are very usefull guides on here without any financial interest.

For true, but for a quantifiable quality standard to be developed, vetted, accepted, etc., somebody has to invest serious time, effort & money...have not seen such a benefactor grace the Lounge since I've been a patron...

 

[T Jones]

I have a more recent vintage 4X Stetson Open Road (1980s?) that I literally hate. Compared to the earlier vintage hats, (1950s and earlier), the newer stuff, IMO, are junk. In the 4X OR I have, the sweat is stiff, like cowhide, and is uncomfortable. The liner is thin and cheap with no plastic protector. There's not the crisp break between the foot of the crown and brim like there was in the earlier vintages. I think my OR came from a time when Stetson licensed other hat companies to make their hats. There seems to be no real attention given to detail and my 4X doesn't look like it was even made on the same block as the early Open Roads were. If I had a hat block for my size, I would take this OR apart and rebuild it. Another lounger commented that he wouldn't buy any Stetson that had a square size tag, indicating more recent vintage. I've tried working with this OR I have and if I can't get it to where I'm satisfied, it goes in the garbage can!

 

[Huertecilla]

For true, but for a quantifiable quality standard to be developed, vetted, accepted, etc., somebody has to invest serious time, effort & money...have not seen such a benefactor grace the Lounge since I've been a patron...

To the contrary what I am asking for is a factual, illustrated foundation for narratives concluding that a reviewed hat/model/model line from brand X is or is not as good as the vintage predecessor.
The reader can than see, learn, weigh the difference.

 

[Huertecilla]

Wool hats were popular back in the day because most were at the lowest price point. Some wool hats were at the highest price point (Vicuna, Loden, Negretti, Wool - Fur blends).

I realy like this one.
Later in the evening I will have a search about wool/fur as from a naturalists pov is all the same; a protein called keratin growing from a hair follicle. Any distinction is about the properties as usefull to us.
Different topic though--

 

[gtdean48]

To the contrary what I am asking for is a factual, illustrated foundation for narratives concluding that a reviewed hat/model/model line from brand X is or is not as good as the vintage predecessor.
The reader can than see, learn, weigh the difference.

I have a different definition for "quantifiable" that you do...

 

[mayserwegener]

In that case my question is more valid than I thought, hoped as the forum is on this subject mainly anecdotal.
The opinion is everywhere but the supporting fact is not.
Concrete quantifying observations like about machine tacks versus invisible ones or number of stitches, the line etc. are RARE and even than hardly ever supported with a photo.

A simple sticky would suffice and if that would be politically desireable, then any mention of brand or model can be left out.

The supporting facts are here but the organization lacks. Also people have different interests / view points. For example I am very focused on old Austrian and German Velours.

 

[mayserwegener]

I realy like this one.
Later in the evening I will have a search about wool/fur as from a naturalists pov is all the same; a protein called keratin growing from a hair follicle. Any distinction is about the properties as usefull to us.
Different topic though--

It will be difficult to find information on wool hat felting methods (soft & stiff) of the past. Also wool felts (soft & stiff) were more popular in Europe. It's high likely some Euro vintage hats we think are fur have some wool content. For example I came across an early 1900s Austrian hat catalog that listed high price point hats of Beaver - Wool blends. I have some information at my website.

 

[fedoracentric]

The supporting facts are here but the organization lacks. Also people have different interests / view points. For example I am very focused on old Austrian and German Velours.

I think the guy is looking for something he won't ever find anywhere!

The fact is, the best way to tell is to buy some modern fedoras and some vintage ones and see for yourself. The differences are obvious.

But you won't find "quantifiable" facts for several reasons, one being that the old hat makers did not talk about their processes and materials. They were all industry secrets that were not talked of openly.

It would take a scientific analysis of the materials used then compared to now to get those facts.

Further, we are talking fashion, here, and fashion is an individual's taste. One guy here loves thin ribbons, so he thinks Open Roads are "better." Another like ribbon bound edges, so he thinks Whippets are "better." Another likes Huntmarchers so he thinks they are "better." Etc.

And, like all things, familiarity breeds expertise and refines your "palate," if you will. What you thought was fine when you first got into hats will be junk once you've handled enough hats and learned about them.

So, I think Huertecilla is spitting in the wind with his request for us to neatly relate all we've learned in a one sentence post that tells him all he wants to know WITHOUT having to do any research himself.

 

[hatophile]

I think Lefty said it best, which is what many of us have done,
purchase a few and make your own judgement. It's like a lot of other things, one's personal bias may greatly affect the final recommendation, and that won't really help you.

 

[mayserwegener]

Further, we are talking fashion, here, and fashion is an individual's taste. One guy here loves thin ribbons, so he thinks Open Roads are "better." Another like ribbon bound edges, so he thinks Whippets are "better." Another likes Huntmarchers so he thinks they are "better." Etc..

I pretty much agree but not regarding the above. This is taste and has nothing to do with quality. For example not liking old Austrian Velour finishes shouldn't discount they were at highest end and extremely difficult to produce (both facts that have nothing to do with taste). There is a good deal of group think here that gets in the way of the facts IMHO.

 

[Huertecilla]

The crux of fora

The supporting facts are here but the organization lacks.

Yes, you are no doubt correct in that.

That is offcourse the prime disadvantage of fora. They are sequential and not conceived to be easily accessible databases.
Added to this some fora have better search function than others but even so I would not ever have found your kindly provided visual proof.

@fedoracentric: if your answer is that you do not wnat to share and that I should reinvent the wheel myself than you are blowing up the fundaments of all aficionado fora.
Furthermore you coúld have read that I asked if there was a thread or book about it. The poor organisational structure of information on fora warrants such a question.

As far a I am concerned the thread had given me the answer:
- Though most narrative about it has no direct factual foundation,
- the underlying facts are there, just all over the place and
- most do not give a *beep* about, are possibly quite pleased with the ´hidden´ nature of the visual, educational, examples.

I will have a look on your website Mayserwegener. Thanks again.
Btw; just had to chuckle about rabbit fur and angora wool