Vintage versus modern ´quality´

[gtdean48]

My stance is if it could be quantified, it would've already been done by now since the felt hat industry's heyday would've addressed it...JMHO

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[facade]

´Quality´ needs to be defined or is a useless term.
I do not agree that it cannot be quantified.
Many aspects cán be quantified IF we identify and define them.

In watches there is the seemingly subjective ´quality of finish´. One factor can be simply méasured even! The level of perfection; the magnification at which imperfections in finish/manufacture become visible.

Like in Panamas the amount of weaves, the tightness and straightness; the more the better.

In felt ´souple´ is useless. It is subjective ánd can just as well be insufficient density. We have to define felt quality by strength, density, fine/course as criteria per example. Thén the force x deflection can be measured and weighed against the density etc.

The more we difine, the more objective it becomes and at the end of that road we can compare specs, but..... I am not even asking for thát.
I am asking for something very, véry, VERY much simpler:
A fáctual comparison between vintage and new. Take a specific/equivalent model of old versus a current one from the rack and compare. The properties, back to back, with fotos. The felt grade, the finish cán be compared. As can the termination of the edges per example. Scales tell the weight, calipers the thickness, an unser the souptleness.

Again: I totally get the logic, the reasoning that vintage is better. I would however NOT be able to explain, support a justification to my rational gf.
The way it is now she hears a sales pitch and understands it like that a mechanical caliber is better than a quartz one because.... euhmmm.
So; I understand that vintage múst be better quality but whát is the factual basis, the justification.
Is there such a comparison? Has someone done that?

A scientific study determining the stress levels of metals used in a spacecraft makes sense. For a fedora? Not really. A fedora by its very nature is a fashion accessory and therefore its functionality is of secondary importance. The emotional response the user has to the fedora is the primary concern. If one enjoys the look, the feel, and how others react to the hat means much more then the strength of the felt.

Pre-decline Vintage Vs. Modern

A typical entry level vintage hat had a leather sweatband, a nice liner, and was made from real fur. If taken care of, the hat could easily last many years of regular use.

A typical entry level modern hat has a ribbon for a sweatband, no liner, and is made from wool. It is lucky to survive its first rainstorm.

You can certainly get a modern hat that is, for all practical considerations, the equivalent of a vintage hat. A blanket statement "vintage is better than modern" is not accurate. However if you narrow the parameters the statement is generally true. For example: A vintage Stetson is almost always better quality than a modern Stetson.

 

[DougC]

I'll take a stab at this. I have several Stetson Open Roads-1950s to present. The felt on the older hats is thinner and more moldable-it has a nicer hand or feel when compared to the 2012 hat; it also has a more generous block (i.e., the crown is taller). However, my 2013 20x Open Road is very nice and compares quite favorably compared to the 1950s 3x, a Royal Deluxe and a 7x I bought from a fellow lounger (not sure of the year on this one)-similar hand, but, not as generous in the crown size (but more generous than the 2013 hat). So, how does all of this compare to my Borsalino Alessandria or my Stetson Premier Strat? They don't. The Open Road is a western style town hat that is very nice. The Borso and the Strat are nice hats. But, the density of the felt, the amount of stiffener, the pouncing, the amount of beaver or rabbit fur in the hat, etc., are all different. In fact, the means by which each hat is made, although similar, are different. I will say this-the Borso is 15 years or older and is VERY NICE! So, how do you quantify all of this? Hats are works of art that really don't need quantification. But, you know it when you see it, feel it and smell it.

 

[The Wiser Hatter]

The ribbon used in vintage hats is made with natural fibers and process is not done that way any more.
So the way that a hatter works with the ribbon is a problem as the ribbon doesn't work the same way. The material used to make the hats are different for modern production hats.
This is due to economic reasons and the material has changed.
Now days the use man made
Materials for the shellac used in felting production and as Tom mentioned the felt is not
Allowed to age.

 

[Huertecilla]

My stance is if it could be quantified, it would've already been done by now since the felt hat industry's heyday would've addressed it...JMHO

I doubt that. The watch industry of today doesn´t want it adressed either.
Just like the motoring industry is master in the art of disguising fuel economy, vehicle weight, cornering speed, braking performance etc.
Industries on the whole have an interest in diffusing objective facts to be able to sell their marketing yarns.

Take a look at the Panama hat grades. It is relatively simple to grade all such hats in a useable system yet the manufactures and distributers put their efforts in diffusing any such system.

I think it cán be quantified or at least comapred and as the general public, the mass of buyers swallows the marketing bull, it is the ´idiot savants´ whom need to take the matter up.
So; in what áre the modern Stetsons and Borsalinos falling short in comparison with their predecessors? Facts, weigh it, measure it, show it, illustrate it. I don´t see the problem. If someone doesn´t have both samples (or recorded data) on hand, then any comparative narration becomes fiction.
Sure there will be plenty of elements sunbjected to personal preferrence, taste and ´opinion´ left but there will at least be sóme justification, sóme foundation for a comparative opinion.

 

[Jedwbpm]

If you are buying a Modern Stetson in Europe it will not be a Hatco hat. Dorfman Pacific has the rights to the Stetson name over seas and for cut an sew hats in the the US.

Jeff

 

[fedoracentric]

Firstly, the capability of today's hatmakers cannot approach the fine felts of the past. They could if they put the money into its production, however, the return costs wouldn't justify the expense of gearing up for production.

And the costs really are the chief reason why modern hats just don't come close to the best of vintage.

Although, the felt that Stetson just used for its new Stratoliner and Stetsonian are very, very good and they should be congratulated for the effort. (By congratulated, I mean go buy a hat to make their effort financially justifiable)

Then there is the loss of expert felters. Remember, all--and I mean all--of the expert hatters are dead. There is no one left alive who knows the process. Any new hat maker would have to experiment with cryptic, ancient industry info and patents to attempt to make felt like the oldsters did. If hat making came back to financial viability those old processes could be new again. But without a large hat-buying public, those old processes just won't come back.

So, there is why hats aren't as good as they once were.

Now, what is the bad? Well, for one most fedoras are made of the same clumsy, thick felt that is used on westerns. Cowboy hats are not fedoras and cowboy felt is often heavier, thicker, stiffer than soft hat fedoras. But to save money, many hat makers use the same felt for fedoras they use on westerns. That failed open crown attempt that Stetson tried with the Nostalgia is an example of that. Comparing the thick felt of the Nostalgia to the finer felt for the new Strat and Stetsonian is quite a difference.

Then there are the ribbons, sweatbands (especially sweatbands), and other furnishings. The olden days had finer materials, better craftsmenship, and a wider range of styles and colors than is available today.

Even comparing the new Stratoliner to one from the 30s shows an amazing difference.

Not to beat up on the new Strat because I salute Stetson for this product but...

Several here have noted that the new Strat they received has its ribbon sewn on with that clear, nylon line that it uses for many of its cowboy hats. We've already seen several new Strats with this clear line not sewn properly and sticking out of the ribbon instead of tightly pulled. That is just sloppy work. You'd never, ever see that on a vintage hat (not only did they never, ever use that clear plastic sting, but you'd never see stitching pulled out).

Then there are sweatbands. Looking at the finer leathers from the past compared to today's thick, often very stiff, sometimes synthetic and not even real leather sweatbands shows a major difference.

Also on the sweatbands you'll notice that the way they are sewn on is a big difference. In older sweatbands the stitches are many more per inch than they are today. This is done to same money pure and simple. Fewer stitches per inch means less thread used to sew the sweatband in place.

But the "look" is a major difference. More stitches per inch gives a more pleasing, more subtle look to a sweatband than the widely spaced, clumsy looking threading we get today.

Again, I love the new Strat, and it is loads better than any new hat made on the market today. But it still doesn't compare favorably to a vintage example.

 

[mayserwegener]

Stetson Europe is Friedrich W. Schneider GmbH & Co. KG, Cologne. FWS goes way back.

http://www.stetson-europe.com/4-1-Our-Company.html

I believe some of their felt hats are sourced out of Spain and Portugal. They have their own cap production in Saxony, Germany.

 

[Huertecilla]

Thanks.
I had noticed that as several I handled were ´Made in Germany´!

It is however beside my point. ´Stetson´ (VS or Europe) and ´Borsalino´ are simply the ones with the widest brand recognistion thus the easiest examples to mention.

As a side note to the seal of origin I wnat to pint out that ´Made Somewhere´ means just that. I means sómewhere in a low wages country and not necessarily in the country mentioned. More often than not the seal of origin can be used if 20 or 30% of total cost is made in that country. Sew the edge and band on, add a qc and pack the lot in Germany; presto - 30% of cost incurred in Germany, thus ´Made in Germany´...
I don´t particularly care. At least not quality wise. The quality is what it is; just compare it

 

[mayserwegener]

There isn't any hat felt production in Germany anymore. Mayser was the last to make felt but they shut down production about 10 years ago. Mayser also moved all hat production to Slovakia about 3 years ago. Wegener still makes some hats in Germany and there are a few smaller operations like Lembert out of Augsburg still making hats.

 

[Huertecilla]

Firstly, the capability of today's hatmakers cannot approach the fine felts of the past. They could if they put the money into its production, however, the return costs wouldn't justify the expense of gearing up for production.

And the costs really are the chief reason why modern hats just don't come close to the best of vintage.

Although, the felt that Stetson just used for its new Stratoliner and Stetsonian are very, very good and they should be congratulated for the effort. (By congratulated, I mean go buy a hat to make their effort financially justifiable)

Then there is the loss of expert felters. Remember, all--and I mean all--of the expert hatters are dead. There is no one left alive who knows the process. Any new hat maker would have to experiment with cryptic, ancient industry info and patents to attempt to make felt like the oldsters did. If hat making came back to financial viability those old processes could be new again. But without a large hat-buying public, those old processes just won't come back.

So, there is why hats aren't as good as they once were.

Now, what is the bad? Well, for one most fedoras are made of the same clumsy, thick felt that is used on westerns. Cowboy hats are not fedoras and cowboy felt is often heavier, thicker, stiffer than soft hat fedoras. But to save money, many hat makers use the same felt for fedoras they use on westerns. That failed open crown attempt that Stetson tried with the Nostalgia is an example of that. Comparing the thick felt of the Nostalgia to the finer felt for the new Strat and Stetsonian is quite a difference.

Then there are the ribbons, sweatbands (especially sweatbands), and other furnishings. The olden days had finer materials, better craftsmenship, and a wider range of styles and colors than is available today.

Even comparing the new Stratoliner to one from the 30s shows an amazing difference.

Not to beat up on the new Strat because I salute Stetson for this product but...

Several here have noted that the new Strat they received has its ribbon sewn on with that clear, nylon line that it uses for many of its cowboy hats. We've already seen several new Strats with this clear line not sewn properly and sticking out of the ribbon instead of tightly pulled. That is just sloppy work. You'd never, ever see that on a vintage hat (not only did they never, ever use that clear plastic sting, but you'd never see stitching pulled out).

Then there are sweatbands. Looking at the finer leathers from the past compared to today's thick, often very stiff, sometimes synthetic and not even real leather sweatbands shows a major difference.

Also on the sweatbands you'll notice that the way they are sewn on is a big difference. In older sweatbands the stitches are many more per inch than they are today. This is done to same money pure and simple. Fewer stitches per inch means less thread used to sew the sweatband in place.

But the "look" is a major difference. More stitches per inch gives a more pleasing, more subtle look to a sweatband than the widely spaced, clumsy looking threading we get today.

Again, I love the new Strat, and it is loads better than any new hat made on the market today. But it still doesn't compare favorably to a vintage example.

Thank you for the extensive answer
It would be perfetc if:
The quality of felt would be defined AND compared.
The finess of the materials would be defined AND compared.
With the liner and sweatbands you are adressing the factual difference and with the stitches you have nailed it!!!! Thát is a factual, measurable comparative criterium for quality. THAT is what I mean and am asking for.

 

[alanfgag]

I think we've discussed this before.

 

[mayserwegener]

A typical entry level vintage hat had a leather sweatband, a nice liner, and was made from real fur. If taken care of, the hat could easily last many years of regular use.

Wool hats were popular back in the day because most were at the lowest price point. Some wool hats were at the highest price point (Vicuna, Loden, Negretti, Wool - Fur blends).

 

[Huertecilla]

A scientific study determining the stress levels of metals used in a spacecraft makes sense. For a fedora? Not really. A fedora by its very nature is a fashion accessory and therefore its functionality is of secondary importance. The emotional response the user has to the fedora is the primary concern. If one enjoys the look, the feel, and how others react to the hat means much more then the strength of the felt.

No disagreement there. HOWEVER; we should then not start about quality nor that of vinateg versus old. You canot both have and use that hat.

Ah and at the end of you in itself reasonable response you state that modern Stestons will in general not compare favourable with the vintage ancestor upon which I will say; why, in what, show me.
I believe you. I get the reasons, but it still is only fiction, opinion unless founded upon fact.

 

[mayserwegener]

I think we've discussed this before.

+100

 

[Huertecilla]

I think we've discussed this before.

I don´t get a link to a thread.
If the subject was already covered then a link is all the answer I asked for.

 

[mayserwegener]

No disagreement there. HOWEVER; we should then not start about quality nor that of vinateg versus old. You canot both have and use that hat.

Ah and at the end of you in itself reasonable response you state that modern Stestons will in general not compare favourable with the vintage ancestor upon which I will say; why, in what, show me.
I believe you. I get the reasons, but it still is only fiction, opinion unless founded upon fact.

The evidence is all over this forum. Eventually someone might write a book about it but probably only the people on here would buy it. The hat (and felt) companies in business today aren't going to say they make an inferior product (at the highest quality) compared to the past. I visited TONAK a few years ago and they didn't want to discuss the past.

Side note: There were low price point hats back in the day. Not all hats and felts were the highest quality. There are still very high quality hats (in small production runs) and felt being made today.

 

[mayserwegener]

I don´t get a link to a thread.
If the subject was already covered then a link is all the answer I asked for.

See my post above. The info is all over this forum (not one thread).

 

[alanfgag]

The discussion of quality in vintage vs. new is a frequent recurrent theme on the fedora lounge. Long time participants will be hesitant to dive back in for another round. If you can focus your query it might be easier to help direct you.

Here is a visual comparison between a modern Borsalino Como and a vintage (1950s) vintage Borsalino "Misto." As most of our vintage purchases are informed by looking at photographs rather than seller descriptions, this type of comparison of the facts can be useful.

 

[gtdean48]

...
The quality of felt would be defined AND compared.
The finess of the materials would be defined AND compared.
With the liner and sweatbands you are adressing the factual difference and with the stitches you have nailed it!!!! Thát is a factual, measurable comparative criterium for quality. THAT is what I mean and am asking for.

There ain't no money in it, so it hasn't been done. Unless you are ready to fund it, it won't be done...