Vintage versus modern ´quality´

[fedoracentric]

From what I've read here, all the named Stetson models were the low end price-wise. It appears that Stetson used the cool named hats to draw customers into the shop where the clerks would then try to upsell the customer to a higher quality hat. So, Whippets, Stratoliners, etc. were mostly 10 and 12 dollar hats while the DeLuxe, the Twenty, the Twentyfive, 7X and 100 were all higher quality.

Anyway, I find that even the $10 cheapies from 1940-50 are far and away better in feel-of-felt than any new Stetson of today. I had a chance recently to handle a bunch of new Stetson models and they all seemed exactly the same in quality, just different in style. It almost seemed as if they had one felt and then just modeled it into different hats.

 

[davers]

I'm starting to think my money would be better spent on a custom from Art, such as this beauty here: Purty Hat as opposed to a new Stetson. Then just keep my beady eyes peeled for a vintage Stetson on the Bay or in the Flea Market here...

Dave

 

[seabass]

you will come out ahead getting a hat from Art,
Besides quality felt & Vintage ribbon & luxurious leather sweat & most importantly high quality workmanship...
This hat will fit your head, new Stetsons dont fit my head & i dont go for a (hat store) not (hat shop) there is a major diffrence store-shop
filling the void of a bad fit with some foam
or they streach it but cant correct the (potato chip curl) effect of a quick streatch....
get a Art-Lite & all you will need is 1 good hat & its not too bad of a $ for what you get...
why spend $200 + tax etc. for a crappy wonky fit when for less than double you have something made for you that you will use & possibably last a lifetime
he will make the strat you want in your size, which is no problem for him....
to me a hat can be purty but it's fit is priorty that comes first & i do have a weird size so custom is for me or i look for the Vintage lite felt hats in L/O the old stuff conforms well
forget it with a New off the shelf Helmet.

 

[gtdean48]

... It almost seemed as if they had one felt and then just modeled it into different hats.

You are basically correct. Hat felt blanks for HatCo hats are made in their plant in Longview, TX & shipped to Garland plant for making into models.
They do specific runs of felt qualities & colors. The majority of blanks for fedoras are Royal Stetson. There are a couple of Sovereign level models in the fedora line. And of course there is the 100% beaver offered in the Pinnacle & another model...

The main load of the upper level quality blanks are done in the western weight bodies because that is the main revenue source for HatCo.
Fedoras are a drop in the bucket & economically, it just doesn't make financial sense to offer a variety like the factories used to.

 

[jlee562]

I'm starting to think my money would be better spent on a custom from Art, such as this beauty here: Purty Hat as opposed to a new Stetson. Then just keep my beady eyes peeled for a vintage Stetson on the Bay or in the Flea Market here...

Dave

I'd also give a nod to Bob Jessee of Black Sheep Hatworks, who has also become a popular hatter around here as of late. He hand dyes his own felt colors. I have two of his hats, and am plotting a third for the future.

 

[Dan Allen]

I recently purchased by way of the net a modern HatCo Stetson Stratoliner. It arrived with a couple of small flaws in the felt. I should have sent it back but didn't want to go threw the hassle. Had it been in a brick and mortar I would have walked away. I guess you can call it the cost of an education. I have never seen any vintage with flawed felt like that.

 

[Blackthorn]

I'm starting to think my money would be better spent on a custom from Art, such as this beauty here: Purty Hat as opposed to a new Stetson. Then just keep my beady eyes peeled for a vintage Stetson on the Bay or in the Flea Market here...

Dave

You can't go wrong with Art. I have a lot of his hats (including the one in my avatar), and they are excellent.

 

[Dan Allen]

considering I live nowhere near a brick and mortar I guess that is the way to go. Not much chance on Art sending out one that has been "pre mothed".

 

[cmalbrecht]

So far I haven't run into a vintage Stetson. I do have a new one (The Saxon), which is very nice. I'm not sure what it's made of, but I would imagine rabbit. If I lay a carrot on the table I notice the hat tends to tilt in that direction. The edge is folded over and glued down I think. On the other hand, I found a vintage Dobbs that is very similar in style (well, really better-looking), in great condition with its original box. The Stetson cost a hundred and some bucks while the Dobbs only cost $25 at a flea market. I'm almost certain the Dobbs is beaver. The edge has been hand-molded back so that it blends into the brim rather than being folded over. It's easy to see that this is a superior hat, yet I'm pretty sure it cost about the same as a Stetson at the time. Also, since my nearest size is 6-7/8, the Dobbs is a Long-Oval, and it is the best fit I've found in any hat. Nowadays there's no such thing as long, oval or any other distinction. At best you get 7, 7-1/4....
But look at the bright side. Today even hats costing several hundred dollars come only in small, medium and large. That's pretty lame if they want to renew the popularity of hats for gentlemen (like me ). I have a Towncraft (from Penney) too. Old and battered, but it is definitely beaver and has a smoothly molded edge to the brim. Where did we go wrong with our hats? What happened to really nice hats? I think I have to go lie down.

 

[DJH]

I'm not sure what it's made of, but I would imagine rabbit. If I lay a carrot on the table I notice the hat tends to tilt in that direction.

That's a really good test for the hat material.

Just make sure that if you have a beaver one, you don't leave it near your tree at Christmas. Wives tend to get cross when they get up in the morning to find that the hat has gnawed through the trunk and started dragging the tree around the room.

 

[cmalbrecht]

Good thinking. I get into enough trouble around here without having our Christmas tree being gnawed on. Thanks.

 

[Lean'n'mean]

I did read on another forum that Stetson now use paper fillers in their felt, I've no idea if this is true or not but if you're looking for a good hat I reckon vintage is better than new, whatever the brand.

 

[Blackthorn]

That's a really good test for the hat material.

Just make sure that if you have a beaver one, you don't leave it near your tree at Christmas. Wives tend to get cross when they get up in the morning to find that the hat has gnawed through the trunk and started dragging the tree around the room.

:eeek::eeek::eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap

 

[Chuck Naill]

I have a new Stetson Stratoliner that I have worn in the rain without a problem. It may not be vintage, but it acts like a hat to me.

 

[TomS]

I'd also give a nod to Bob Jessee of Black Sheep Hatworks, who has also become a popular hatter around here as of late. He hand dyes his own felt colors. I have two of his hats, and am plotting a third for the future.

+1

 

[Huertecilla]

As quality has many definitions I have used commas.

I am from the hatless generation but having moved south, the mediterranean sun is getting ever harder on my scalp ever less protected by my thinning hair.
I have about a dozen hats, mostly ´western´ type. Very utalitarian, cheap, mass produced VERY good value for very little money.
They don´t look níce though for leasure, going out etc so I decided to get a better quality hat.

As it gets hhhhhhót here, I looked at a Panama but that simply is a NoNo; it is part of the UK ex-pat uniform; oversized t-shirt in too good life profile, short trousers, pink legs, pulled up white sock in sandals and.... a Panama.
Yes, a well made fine Montecristo may be the absolute best to wear here and I don´t scare at the price for a well made product, but it is a NoNo. Period.

So, it was to be a felt ´Fedora´.
To cut a long story short I will go to the crux; my question:
Is there a good objective point for point explanatory comparison between vintage and modern made sómewhere?

I read loads of comments about Hatco and about Borsalino not being a shade of the old product but am having a hard time finding any detaile, illustrating fácts.
I would like to read something... quantified,´measurable´. I mean; I can understand, séé the cheap tacks on the band versus invisible ones. I totally get that. I am looking for vintage/modern hats compaired thát way. Is that on the web somewhere, or in a book; I will buy the book.

Kindest regards and with GREAT appreciation of the knowledge/experience shared on the forum here.

Petrus

 

[gtdean48]

There are lots of posts on this topic but 1 point is undeniable, modern felt production does not & cannot produce the same type of end products the old methods did. It is just not economical. The economies of scale are not there anymore. In the vintage days, felters & hatter could let the felt bodies "age", sometimes for years, that is not practical these days. Felt continues to "felt" until it reaches the "dead felt" state = the fur fibers are locked as tight as they can possibly be locked. Vintage hatters started with a felt body that was at a state of "felting" that modern hatters do not. They can't afford to tie up the funds invested in the bodies just to let them sit for a year like Stetson could way back when. It is like running a race against somebody of the same speed who is starting way down the track from you = just no way to catch them...JMHO

 

[Huertecilla]

Thank you for the reply.

I totally get the argument. Time has changed from regional craftmanship to globalised automated mass production with management/ownership changed from involved humans to bean counters paid by investors.

I have a pile of pre- and post automated manufacture mechanical watches and it is no different there.

As such I have already bought two vintage hats and am looking to buy more.

My point is that unlike with watches I cannot find a part for part, back to back break down/ comparison explaning, illustrating in pixelperfect detail what are the factual properties you can see, measure, quantify, which make up ' quality' , the differences.

The closest to what I mean are the 1 inch grid fotos of Panama hat weaves. You can SEE, measure, quantify how fine/straight the weave is.
Offcourse there are more aspects/properties unfortunately not illustrated which also determain overall 'quality'
but the grid fotos ARE a perfect example of an irrifutable and cristal clear for all to understand FACTUAL aspect of quality.

 

[gtdean48]

Quality = hard to describe but you know it when you see it, touch it, smell it, etc.
You are looking for a quantifier for something that is not easily quantifiable.

 

[Huertecilla]

Objective criteria

Quality = hard to describe but you know it when you see it, touch it, smell it, etc.
You are looking for a quantifier for something that is not easily quantifiable.

´Quality´ needs to be defined or is a useless term.
I do not agree that it cannot be quantified.
Many aspects cán be quantified IF we identify and define them.

In watches there is the seemingly subjective ´quality of finish´. One factor can be simply méasured even! The level of perfection; the magnification at which imperfections in finish/manufacture become visible.

Like in Panamas the amount of weaves, the tightness and straightness; the more the better.

In felt ´souple´ is useless. It is subjective ánd can just as well be insufficient density. We have to define felt quality by strength, density, fine/course as criteria per example. Thén the force x deflection can be measured and weighed against the density etc.

The more we difine, the more objective it becomes and at the end of that road we can compare specs, but..... I am not even asking for thát.
I am asking for something very, véry, VERY much simpler:
A fáctual comparison between vintage and new. Take a specific/equivalent model of old versus a current one from the rack and compare. The properties, back to back, with fotos. The felt grade, the finish cán be compared. As can the termination of the edges per example. Scales tell the weight, calipers the thickness, an unser the souptleness.

Again: I totally get the logic, the reasoning that vintage is better. I would however NOT be able to explain, support a justification to my rational gf.
The way it is now she hears a sales pitch and understands it like that a mechanical caliber is better than a quartz one because.... euhmmm.
So; I understand that vintage múst be better quality but whát is the factual basis, the justification.
Is there such a comparison? Has someone done that?