Today's Pinup Fashion a Sly Wink to the Past - New York Times

[sheeplady]

Amazing how much more nuanced things become when confronted by the reality of it as opposed to in the abstract, isn't it?

I'm still pro-legalizing prostitution, but it would be incredibly strongly regulated for me to go along with it's legalization. I had always been told that pornography was a male dominated industry where the women who stared in such movies were treated like trash and abused. There are a lot of feminists who believe that one cannot be ok with pornography even in the abstract and be a feminist. Then I met someone who told me what it was really like to work in that industry and was a self-identified feminist herself. So that quelled a lot of the conflict I felt over being a "bad" feminist for not having issues with porn as a concept. (I do have a problem with abuse, but I don't think all pornography is abusive just by its existence.)

Stripping doesn't even ding my radar. When I was 14, my mother told me that all the pretty girls she knew when she was young used to dance on the side for extra money. Some with their clothes on and some with their clothes off. And that I should never judge someone for taking their clothes off or for keeping them on. That stuck with me.

 

[Edward]

I'm still pro-legalizing prostitution, but it would be incredibly strongly regulated for me to go along with it's legalization. I had always been told that pornography was a male dominated industry where the women who stared in such movies were treated like trash and abused. There are a lot of feminists who believe that one cannot be ok with pornography even in the abstract and be a feminist. Then I met someone who told me what it was really like to work in that industry and was a self-identified feminist herself. So that quelled a lot of the conflict I felt over being a "bad" feminist for not having issues with porn as a concept. (I do have a problem with abuse, but I don't think all pornography is abusive just by its existence.)

Stripping doesn't even ding my radar. When I was 14, my mother told me that all the pretty girls she knew when she was young used to dance on the side for extra money. Some with their clothes on and some with their clothes off. And that I should never judge someone for taking their clothes off or for keeping them on. That stuck with me.

Five years studying and nearly fourteen years teaching at law school have firmly convinced me that we should always approach the idea of using law as a mode of enforcing morality with extreme caution.

 

[LizzieMaine]

The Boys from Marketing would love to see prostitution legalized -- if there's one thing they know how to do above all other skills, it's how to pimp.

 

[Flicka]

I'm Swedish. That means that I am about as unprude as a person can possibly get, but hugely, massively sensitive to sexism. If a woman wants to have sex with all and sundry, more power to her. IF that's what she wants, that is. But the objectification of women drives me bonkers. There's a huge, huge difference between being a sexual subject and an object, IMO. A woman should be a person whose worth is seperated from her sexual appeal and her sexual virtue alike. Nothing makes me angrier than when women permeate this attitudes, either by condemning women who dress or behave in an overtly sexual way, or by joining 'the boys' in objectifying other women in a sexual way.

Here, prositution is legal - that is, it's legal to sell sexual services but not to buy them. I think that sums up my feelings. I can't condemn women for taking desperate measures, but the people who exploit them rank way below dung beetles in my book.

My nearly 19-year-old stepson is staying with us for a brief time, and one night he didn't come home (not unusual as he usually stays at a friend's house). But I was shocked when he told me he'd stayed at his girlfriend's house (she still lives with her parents - she just graduated high school) in her bedroom with her parents' permission.

I couldn't believe it. No, I was not proud of my stepson for his decision, either, and told him so, but my faith in modern parents got a little tainted that day.

Again, I'm Swedish. People here would be outraged - absolutely outraged - if the parents objected to two 19 y/o sleeping together. When I was a teenager (some 15 years ago) my mother made sure I had access to conteaceptives, but beyond that she said: "That's your personal life and I have no right to pry." I think most parents have been fine with that for at least the past 30 years here.

Cultural differences. They do exist!

 

[LizzieMaine]

Here, prositution is legal - that is, it's legal to sell sexual services but not to buy them. I think that sums up my feelings. I can't condemn women for taking desperate measures, but the people who exploit them rank way below dung beetles in my book.

I've always felt that the purchasers in these transactions ought to bear the strongest brunt of the prosecution. The thing that bothers me the most is that every sex act bought for money only reaffirms what the culture is telling these men, over and over and over again: that a woman is just a commodity, a product that can and should be bought and sold as easily -- and worse, as disposably -- as a bottle of beer. Forget about its impact from a feminist perspective -- it's degrading from a *human* perspective.

 

[Aerojoe]

Excuse me Don't you think this thread is going way too far? The woman in the article, Ms. Clifford, is 21, an adult in most of western countries. She is wearing more clothes on her than my grandmother. And I don't find her too provocative for today's standards. Those 50's shoes are one of the most unsexy things a woman can possibly wear.

Maybe she just likes 50s aesthetics and that's all.

 

[Miss Golightly]

I'm Swedish. That means that I am about as unprude as a person can possibly get, but hugely, massively sensitive to sexism. If a woman wants to have sex with all and sundry, more power to her. IF that's what she wants, that is. But the objectification of women drives me bonkers. There's a huge, huge difference between being a sexual subject and an object, IMO. A woman should be a person whose worth is seperated from her sexual appeal and her sexual virtue alike. Nothing makes me angrier than when women permeate this attitudes, either by condemning women who dress or behave in an overtly sexual way, or by joining 'the boys' in objectifying other women in a sexual way.

I despair when I read so many women stating that they have no problem with their partner/spouse going to a strip club on Stag Nights (whether their own or someone elses) - that it's "just something the lads do" or "a bit of a laugh" or "I don't want to have him miss out". It doesn't occur to them that the woman up there on stage is someone's daughter - I mean, I'm sure they wouldn't want their daughter up there but it's somehow ok for someone elses child to be up there degrading themselves - that really wrecks my head.

There aren't that many strip clubs here in Dublin I am glad to say - it's not something that is that popular here and the majority of the dancers are not even Irish - I was hoping with the current economic climate that the few would close down - some are still hanging in there unfortunately. I do have to laugh when I see "Gentlemen's Club" outside - I imagine you would be hard pressed to find one in there......

 

[LizzieMaine]

There aren't that many strip clubs here in Dublin I am glad to say - it's not something that is that popular here and the majority of the dancers are not even Irish - I was hoping with the current economic climate that the few would close down - some are still hanging in there unfortunately. I do have to laugh when I see "Gentlemen's Club" outside - I imagine you would be hard pressed to find one in there......

In one of the inland towns here, somebody opened a "Topless Doughnut Shop," realizing that even the dirty-raincoat crowd needs breakfast. Classy.

 

[Miss Golightly]

In one of the inland towns here, somebody opened a "Topless Doughnut Shop," realizing that even the dirty-raincoat crowd needs breakfast. Classy.

Nice to see someone taking care of all their needs - a one stop shop - nice....

 

[Flicka]

I've always felt that the purchasers in these transactions ought to bear the strongest brunt of the prosecution. The thing that bothers me the most is that every sex act bought for money only reaffirms what the culture is telling these men, over and over and over again: that a woman is just a commodity, a product that can and should be bought and sold as easily -- and worse, as disposably -- as a bottle of beer. Forget about its impact from a feminist perspective -- it's degrading from a *human* perspective.

Amen.

 

[William Stratford]

I see "Gentlemen's Club" outside

That irks me no end! A Gentlemen's Club should be a place for gentlemen, not some squalid dive packed with raincoats and poor hygiene. *shudder*

 

[Miss Golightly]

That irks me no end! A Gentlemen's Club should be a place for gentlemen, not some squalid dive packed with raincoats and poor hygiene. *shudder*

Indeed, when I think of Gentlemen's Club I imagine leather armchairs, a roaring fire, a library, oak-panelling, all the gents looking dapper and well turned out, sipping cocktails or tipple of choice, the rustling of newspapers and some quiet conversation....

A world away from the sordid scene you describe....

 

[William Stratford]

Indeed, when I think of Gentlemen's Club I imagine leather armchairs, a roaring fire, a library, oak-panelling, all the gents looking dapper and well turned out, sipping cocktails or tipple of choice, the rustling of newspapers and some quiet conversation....

Now that is how to spend a chilly late autumn evening

 

[Flicka]

Indeed, when I think of Gentlemen's Club I imagine leather armchairs, a roaring fire, a library, oak-panelling, all the gents looking dapper and well turned out, sipping cocktails or tipple of choice, the rustling of newspapers and some quiet conversation....

Fine whisky, elderly gentlemen who shush at the younger crowd who rustle the newspapers too loudly, perhaps a game of patience or two... Or am I thinking of the Bellona Club?

 

[rene_writer]

It doesn't occur to them that the woman up there on stage is someone's daughter

Sorry to derail a serious conversation, but did that remind anyone else of The Hangover?

Oh, and when I hear Gentlemen's Club, I also tend to think of the sort of place Mr. Darcy would wile away his hours in, but I guess re-using the word is better than the alternative. After all, nobody really wants to explain to the kids what "Totally Nude Girls Girls Girls!!" (I'm picturing flashing neon) is every time they drive by.

 

[sheeplady]

In one of the inland towns here, somebody opened a "Topless Doughnut Shop," realizing that even the dirty-raincoat crowd needs breakfast. Classy.

"How can I make money off my sub-standard donuts that no one want's to buy? They are as hard as a rock out of the oven and stale before I mix them up. Oh, I know how I can make money, a topless doughnut shop! I'm brilliant! Maybe I can start a nationwide chain! Sex and doughnuts!" -Creepy topless doughnut shop owner.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

Or worse, how long do you figure it will be before pole dancing becomes an Olympic sport? :doh:

[video=youtube;jkWiB_3i7lY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkWiB_3i7lY[/video]

 

[Amy Jeanne]

Again, I'm Swedish. People here would be outraged - absolutely outraged - if the parents objected to two 19 y/o sleeping together. When I was a teenager (some 15 years ago) my mother made sure I had access to conteaceptives, but beyond that she said: "That's your personal life and I have no right to pry." I think most parents have been fine with that for at least the past 30 years here.

Cultural differences. They do exist!

I'm American and I don't have a problem with two 19 year olds who are in a relationship spending the night together. When I got my first real boyfriend at age 18 we used to spend the night at each other's houses all the time. We both lived with our parents, too. Last I heard, 18/19 was an adult. 15 or 16 might be problematic, but not 18. Actually, I don't think I know anyone who would not let their 18 or 19 year old child spend the night with their S/O. Like you said, most parents talk about sex and don't like to pry once their kid turns 18.


Thanks HEAVENS my husband isn't into strippers or anything like that. Does nothing for him and not his idea of beauty. He also finds strip clubs to be "embarrassing" and says the men who patronise them are more pathetic than the strippers. I love my husband and that he has standards! I wouldn't marry a man with boring taste, though

 

[Edward]

Sorry to derail a serious conversation, but did that remind anyone else of The Hangover?

I try not to be reminded of that film at all, tbh.... I wasn't much impressed in general by its tedious male and racial stereotypes, but where it really crossed a line was in hero-worshipping Mike Tyson - an unrepentant, convicted rapist. Deeply uncomfortable.

Or worse, how long do you figure it will be before pole dancing becomes an Olympic sport? :doh:

Can't claim to care what they do at the Olympics - it's a lot of fool nonsense for people who never grew out of School Sports Day. However... About a year and a half ago, I went to see a friend perform at a really good cabaret night in London. They had a pole dance as one of the acts. She came on in a bikini and didn't take anything off; the performance was entirely acrobatic and not sexualised. Totally opened my eyes to the physical skill involved. If it evolved in that direction, I'd see that as a positive thing. Not that I'd close down the existing clubs - again, not an appropriate area for the law to enforce morality.

I've always felt that the purchasers in these transactions ought to bear the strongest brunt of the prosecution. The thing that bothers me the most is that every sex act bought for money only reaffirms what the culture is telling these men, over and over and over again: that a woman is just a commodity, a product that can and should be bought and sold as easily -- and worse, as disposably -- as a bottle of beer. Forget about its impact from a feminist perspective -- it's degrading from a *human* perspective.

Yes. Unfortunately, the last I looked into it (about five years ago), the law in the UK was still such that for a first offence at least the (typically male) customer gets a slapped wrist, while the (typically female) sex worker is charged, appears in court, is fined... and goes rght back out on the street to earn the money to pay the fine.

 

[AmateisGal]

I'm American and I don't have a problem with two 19 year olds who are in a relationship spending the night together. When I got my first real boyfriend at age 18 we used to spend the night at each other's houses all the time. We both lived with our parents, too. Last I heard, 18/19 was an adult. 15 or 16 might be problematic, but not 18. Actually, I don't think I know anyone who would not let their 18 or 19 year old child spend the night with their S/O. Like you said, most parents talk about sex and don't like to pry once their kid turns 18.
)

I think this comes down to individual parenting. You can be assured that if they had stayed at our house, they would have slept in different rooms. To each his own.