Today's Pinup Fashion a Sly Wink to the Past - New York Times

[rene_writer]

I try not to be reminded of that film at all, tbh.... I wasn't much impressed in general by its tedious male and racial stereotypes, but where it really crossed a line was in hero-worshipping Mike Tyson - an unrepentant, convicted rapist. Deeply uncomfortable.

Agreed on all scores. I haven't like anything else that has come from the same makers either. And then there was Bridesmaids. Shudder.

 

[herringbonekid]

Nothing makes me angrier than when women permeate this attitudes, either by condemning women who dress or behave in an overtly sexual way, or by joining 'the boys' in objectifying other women in a sexual way.

are you saying it's ok to 'dress in an overtly sexual way' but not for others to look ?

 

[herringbonekid]

Excuse me Don't you think this thread is going way too far?

yes, this thread seems to be suggesting that young women who take inspiration from pin-up icons of the past for their every day style are part of the same problematic modern group who text semi-pornographic images of themselves to their friends, and who's sex-lives are informed by modern porn-culture when no such evidence exists. most young vintage-wearing ladies would be repulsed by other modern standards / conventions of 'sexiness'. the attempt to conflate two different ends of the cultural taste spectrum strikes me as woefully confused.

 

[sheeplady]

Thanks HEAVENS my husband isn't into strippers or anything like that. Does nothing for him and not his idea of beauty. He also finds strip clubs to be "embarrassing" and says the men who patronise them are more pathetic than the strippers. I love my husband and that he has standards! I wouldn't marry a man with boring taste, though

I have absolutely no problems with strippers. They are just people trying to make a living. I would have a problem if my husband went and watched them. Just because I think that society should leave the strippers alone (much like I think they should leave the prostitutes alone and not persecute them) doesn't mean that I'm ok with my husband or hypothetical kids using their services. It just means that if I meet a stripper, I don't treat them as less of a person because they just happen to take their clothes off for money.

yes, this thread seems to be suggesting that young women who take inspiration from pin-up icons of the past for their every day style are part of the same problematic modern group who text semi-pornographic images of themselves to their friends, and who's sex-lives are informed by modern porn-culture when no such evidence exists. most young vintage-wearing ladies would be repulsed by other modern standards / conventions of 'sexiness'. the attempt to conflate two different ends of the cultural taste spectrum strikes me as woefully confused.

What I really don't like about this attitude is that we have only snippets of these ladies' personal view shown. What if the young lady said "I really admire Betty Page. I found her work, I thought it was interesting and she was beautiful. Then I did research on her and I respect her as a person, she was a really classy lady" but what got taken out was how "classy" she found Betty's naked shots. We all know that newspapers or writers would never ever take a quote out of context or leave out things that are less interesting and less likely to sell papers.

In all likelihood, they found a look they like which they associate with Betty Page. It's not much different than people who get inspiration from Marilyn Monroe, a woman who made her career out of being a stereotypical dumb blonde woman whose sexiness was marketed. (Monroe was just the first example I thought of.) Are people who want to wear halter dresses and use Monroe as a style inspiration furthering stereotypes of women being stupid? Or being sexualized? Monroe took her clothes off too- does she just get more of a pass by society because she was an actress too and therefore has "more value" than just being a "sexual object"? Would we be having this conversation if rather than Betty Page, the ladies quoted Monroe as their influence?

 

[LizzieMaine]

Would we be having this conversation if rather than Betty Page, the ladies quoted Monroe as their influence?

As far as I'm concerned, Monroe was even more of a victim of the system than Page was. At least Betty didn't spend her whole life as the prisoner of a manufactured image.

I think the real question is, would there have been an article if the young women in question were dressing in suits or cotton housedresses? Would that have been as notable a trend in the modern media as those who prefer a "pinup" style?

 

[herringbonekid]

What I really don't like about this attitude is that we have only snippets of these ladies' personal view shown. What if the young lady said "I really admire Betty Page. I found her work, I thought it was interesting and she was beautiful. Then I did research on her and I respect her as a person, she was a really classy lady" but what got taken out was how "classy" she found Betty's naked shots.

exactly. the young lady also expressed no interest in being a stripper / burlesque star, or posing for cheesecake photos in underwear, yet according to this thread she has a vintage 'porn' aesthetic.

 

[William Stratford]

As far as I'm concerned, Monroe was even more of a victim of the system than Page was. At least Betty didn't spend her whole life as the prisoner of a manufactured image.

I think the real question is, would there have been an article if the young women in question were dressing in suits or cotton housedresses? Would that have been as notable a trend in the modern media as those who prefer a "pinup" style?

Indeed.

 

[Flicka]

yes, this thread seems to be suggesting that young women who take inspiration from pin-up icons of the past for their every day style are part of the same problematic modern group who text semi-pornographic images of themselves to their friends, and who's sex-lives are informed by modern porn-culture when no such evidence exists. most young vintage-wearing ladies would be repulsed by other modern standards / conventions of 'sexiness'. the attempt to conflate two different ends of the cultural taste spectrum strikes me as woefully confused.

I thought we had drifted into a discussion on women, society and sexuality now and then in general, but I could be wrong. That was the discussion I was taking part in, anyway.

are you saying it's ok to 'dress in an overtly sexual way' but not for others to look ?

Personally, I don't equal 'looking' and 'objectifying', but YMMV.

 

[Undertow]

yes, this thread seems to be suggesting that young women who take inspiration from pin-up icons of the past for their every day style are part of the same problematic modern group who text semi-pornographic images of themselves to their friends, and who's sex-lives are informed by modern porn-culture when no such evidence exists. most young vintage-wearing ladies would be repulsed by other modern standards / conventions of 'sexiness'. the attempt to conflate two different ends of the cultural taste spectrum strikes me as woefully confused.

From the beginning of the article:

"She found it one day while sifting through a trash container, where she unearthed a dog-eared 1950s Playboy. Inside were photographs of Bettie Page showing off the trademark cherry-tone lips and little-girl bangs that made her the most popular pinup of her day.

“I know that back in the ’50s, her images were porno material, but they’re classy now,” Ms. Clifford said."

Doesn't this image just scream "classy"?

 

[Undertow]

...And I don't find her too provocative for today's standards. Those 50's shoes are one of the most unsexy things a woman can possibly wear...

Them's fightin' words in these parts, Tex. :nono:

 

[rue]

Doesn't this image just scream "classy"?

So, you're saying that's not classy? Damn.... there goes my grocery shopping outfit :eusa_doh:

lol

 

[rue]

Them's fightin' words in these parts, Tex. :nono:

Yup.

 

[herringbonekid]

Personally, I don't equal 'looking' and 'objectifying', but YMMV.

ok, so a woman dressing in an overtly sexual way is fine. at what point does she become complicit in her own 'objectification' ?

 

[Flicka]

ok, so a woman dressing in an overtly sexual way is fine. at what point does she become complicit in her own 'objectification' ?

Interesting. Why do you think that's a relevant question?

 

[herringbonekid]

because i don't understand what you mean by this...

...or by joining 'the boys' in objectifying other women in a sexual way.

 

[Amy Jeanne]

I have absolutely no problems with strippers. They are just people trying to make a living. I would have a problem if my husband went and watched them. Just because I think that society should leave the strippers alone (much like I think they should leave the prostitutes alone and not persecute them) doesn't mean that I'm ok with my husband or hypothetical kids using their services. It just means that if I meet a stripper, I don't treat them as less of a person because they just happen to take their clothes off for money.

I don't have a problem with strippers, either. I have a stripper friend. My husband does, though, and can't stand my stripper friend. He makes no apologies about disliking certain people. Believe it or not I was a stripper once, lol Way before I met my husband when I was young and stupid and I only did it for 2 days!!! I just got up there and danced and hung out backstage -- I think I had too many morals to get tips so I didn't make much money lol. But the experience was fun and I'm glad I did it -- I have a funny story to tell. Don't have an issue with hookers, either (I wasn't one of those, though ) No issues with porn stars, either (nope, never did that, either!)

And just so no one reads too far into this: stripping is not for *me.* Just like being a waitress isn't for me. Doesn't fit *my* personality. I'd think I was stupid if I tried waitressing just as I think I'm stupid to have tried stripping!

 

[Flicka]

because i don't understand what you mean by this...

I mean that women can be sexist too and that it infuriates me when they are, more than when men do it (some men, albeit far from the majority, sometimes are). To me, it feels like an underhand way of trying to be accepted as an honorary man by putting down their sisters.

 

[sheeplady]

Doesn't this image just scream "classy"?

Actually, if you have a problem with that, you shouldn't go to the beach because a lot of modern bikinis have far less fabric than that. So are women who wear bikinis not classy?

 

[AmateisGal]

Actually, if you have a problem with that, you shouldn't go to the beach because a lot of modern bikinis have far less fabric than that. So are women who wear bikinis not classy?

My personal opinion? Those women who wear those bikinis that leave absolutely nothing to the imagination? i.e. tiny, tiny scraps of fabric that barely cover the ni*p*les and barely there thongs? Well, I would say no, they're not classy. But that is my PERSONAL OPINION. They are free to wear whatever they want.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Exactly. My main concern is less what other people are wearing than what it is about the culture we live in that makes them want to wear it. And that's what we've been talking about here.

(And for what it's worth, my main reaction when I see someone going around in one of those ridiculous butt-floss bikinis is "how do they keep the sand out?")