Today's Pinup Fashion a Sly Wink to the Past - New York Times

[LizzieMaine]

It's a pity nobody ever made a pinup of Frances Perkins.

 

[dhermann1]

There were plenty of people who would have liked to stick pins into her.

 

[dhermann1]

I feel similarly about the many young women these days who are all hot to trot to do Burlesque. I mean, I have a lot of female friends who are damned attractive, but still, unless we were in an "intimate relationship", I reeeeeelllly don't want to see them naked.

 

[AmateisGal]

That's the thing. Modern culture is telling girls and young women it's perfectly fine and normal to do things like that, and providing them with all sorts of role models telling them that their function in life, first and foremost, is to be sexual playthings -- doesn't matter if they're wearing seamed stockings and a halter top or whatever the modern alternative is, the message is the same. And it's telling boys and young men that they're perfectly entitled to expect girls and young women to act that way. That's not exactly a path to a healthy view of sex for either side, especially when the kids in question are too young to fully understand the emotional consequences. (Oh wait, I forgot, modern culture doesn't believe sex *has* emotional consequences.)

Exactly. And being the mother of a 12-year-old girl in middle school really hammers home this conversation. Fortunately, we have talked very openly about all of this and her attitude toward it all is still BLECH, GROSS. She is still having trouble even talking to a boy she likes and still has the innocence of those early crushes. I hope and pray it stays that way for a long time, but a lot of that falls upon my shoulders, which is exactly why we have talked about it all.

 

[John in Covina]

We value youth and hold off mautrity but the culture of TV and advertising seems to push children to more adult type dress and situations.It seems like our pioneering forefathers 100-150 years ago needed kids that were acting a bit more like adults at 12-16.

I think that people want to do what they want and be free of consequences so the behavior of some while seeking to be an adult goes for the worst traits of adulthood. Values have been lost in many ways.

 

[scotrace]

The other day, standing in line at a Chipotle with my 15 year old daughter, I saw that the late-teen boys ahead of us were passing a smartphone around. And then I saw why: One of the guys was showing everyone in the group a mostly nude photo of a current or former girlfriend. There was much grunting and hooting. My daughter didn't see it, but I turned her to me, told her what was going on, and said "never, but NEVER send anything like that. Because this is what boys do. They share with their buddies. When I was a kid, they shared stories of exploits. Now the stories come complete with illustrations. And it's likely enough that that girl's picture will end up scattered around the internet for a few jillion faceless wankers to add to their collections."
I must have spoken out of my whisper voice, because the boys put the phone away and looked at me all surly-face.

My reason for posting the article, from which I frankly did not glean all this meaning, was mainly: "Here's a quick-read story about people who like vintage."

But, yes, it is interesting that Bettie Page, who was probably not known by your average jamoke and only played to the furtive Girlie Mag buyer, is now held up as a sort of model of the demure lady who has gone missing from Main Street.

 

[sheeplady]

In the privacy of your own home is one thing. I have no problem with that. But the whole mentality of Girls Gone Wild (which you can also see on teenager's FB pages) is what I find appalling.

I do wish that girls had better role models, but honestly our society is just so focused on the fact that a role model has to be an entertainer or an athlete that there are very few good choices out there. The plain fact is that sex sells, so whomever sells the most sex is going to get ahead the fastest and make the biggest splash on the entertainment news. Even female athletes don't make much of a splash unless there is sex involved. It's sad and it's cheap and it's unfortunate; but our society has long ago stopped looking up to women who are intellectually or socially successful. The only modern intellectual/ socially focused women I can think of that I know others' look up to are Condi Rice and Hillary Clinton. (They're politicians, so...)

I am going to add here that I have personally known a few strippers, a former prostitute, and pornography actress. I have absolutely no problems with any of these things. Talking to these women about their professions and lives really changed my mind about certain things.

 

[Juliet]

Even female athletes don't make much of a splash unless there is sex involved.

This. A lot of women who have really accomplished something, are still evaluated by how they look and with whom they sleep. Their competency is an afterthought.

I honestly don't believe that the modern day has discovered something new in lieu of morals. I'm sure there were several 'raunchy' periods in the history of mankind. But it's this expectation (pressure almost), pouring forth from all mass media, that by the age of 14 one should have a sex life that a porn star would envy, and, ideally, no emotional ties at all, that I find extremely disconcerting.
When things like the Paris Vogue "Cadeaux" editorial barely make a splash - isn't that a bit worrying?

 

[rue]

My reason for posting the article, from which I frankly did not glean all this meaning, was mainly: "Here's a quick-read story about people who like vintage."

Yup.

 

[sheeplady]

This. A lot of women who have really accomplished something, are still evaluated by how they look and with whom they sleep. Their competency is an afterthought.

And if it's not about who she is sleeping with, it's about who she could be/ should be/ would be sleeping with; or even worse, who her SO is sleeping with. Or could be/ should be/ would be. All sorts of stuff that I don't want to know about.

A couple years ago NY state media (and the US media) totally blew up about Elliot Spitzer (then governor) who had a penchant for prostitutes. All sorts of details about what should be a private affair in his family came out. Really sordid details. All we really needed to know was: he broke the law and if he abused his power, government funds, or position in doing so.

 

[vitanola]

It's a pity nobody ever made a pinup of Frances Perkins.

You know, I had been thinking the same thing about Lulu McConnell.

 

[LizzieMaine]

To say nothing of Edna May Oliver.

 

[vitanola]

To say nothing of Edna May Oliver.

:eeek:

You're the STRANGEST girl...


You know, someone once asked Miss Oliver "Why the long face?"

"Heavy dentures" was her reply.

 

[Miss Stella]

it's not me you have to convince of that. It's modern society. When modern society drools "whoooooa, hawwwwwwwt," is it really impressed with what the woman in question has accomplished? Does it even entertain the possibility that she might actually *have* accomplishments, or any other aspects to her identity aside from her sexuality? That's the attitude that i'm opposed to, and i'm strongly opposed to a society that insists that any woman who questions such an attitude must somehow be in league with the taliban. Is the best we can expect from modern culture that "at least we aren't being stoned?"

the main thesis of levy's book isn't criticising the idea that women have taken charge of their own sexuality, it's to argue that quite the opposite has actually occured -- that in fact a marketing-driven society has bamboozled women into redefining their sexuality exclusively in male terms, thus the appeal to raunch and frat-boy coarseness disguised as "empowerment." hence the title, "female chauvinist pigs."

amen.

 

[Miss Moonlight]

That's the thing. Modern culture is telling girls and young women it's perfectly fine and normal to do things like that, and providing them with all sorts of role models telling them that their function in life, first and foremost, is to be sexual playthings -- doesn't matter if they're wearing seamed stockings and a halter top or whatever the modern alternative is, the message is the same.

But this is why it's up to parents to instill a sense of self-worth in our daughters *and* sons. I have a two year old daughter, and I think about these things already. I think about how my sister has managed this with her 16 year old daughter in a realistic way. It's incredibly important to make sure they understand the reality of how sexuality is perceived and promoted in modern culture, and also to let them know that they do not have to be a part of that, while also remaning realistic oneself about the nature of human sexuality and that if you don't give your daughter the tools to deflect the dangerous messages- whatever they are- and to value herself, and understand that she is not a commodity... well you cannot blame modern culture. I won't blame anyone but myself if I fail to instill in my daughter what she needs to contend with this world, this culture, or any other.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I think the problem is too many modern parents don't think the messages sent are any big deal -- either because they think it's all a big joke, or they assume the kid has the sense on her own to understand the difference between reality and market-created illusions.

 

[Miss Moonlight]

One of the worst mistakes parents make is seeing their own children through rose-colored glasses. It's so important to me to be realistic and remember that my daughter is only human, even if I do think she's the best one ever. I used to see it when I worked retail ("My child would NEVER shoplift!" Oh, that's why she has five layers of our clothing on and is trying to walk out without paying...) and I've seen it in friends who can't believe and are shocked when their kids have sex as teens even though the average age for that in this country is in the teens. Like that or not, you'd best be realistic about it all. Inform yourself, inform your kids. Or you might as well throw them in with the sharks.

 

[C-dot]

That's the problem right there. The growing "pornification" of society which had previously considered such business for red light districts and girlie mags are now, to quote the gal from the article, "classy"...

Though I don't agree with what Clifford is saying about many of Bettie Page's poses being "classy now" (soft-core porn is the same in any era), being myself a lover of "pin-up style" and for that matter, the same age as Clifford, I don't equate "pin-ups" with Bettie Page or men's magazines.

Betty Grable, Lana Turner and Rita Hayworth were popular pin-ups in WWII and were called such at the time, especially for the images I have linked to. When the title was affixed to these ladies it was not pejorative. Similarly, the pin-up art of Vargas, Ballantyne, De Vorss and many others, while perhaps daring, is not in the least pornographic (neither at the time nor now) and was a symbol of American patriotism during the War; Giving the boys something to fight for, so to speak. It is their style that is synonymous in my mind with "pin-up", and probably in the minds of many other twenty-somethings going for the look as well.

 

[AmateisGal]

My nearly 19-year-old stepson is staying with us for a brief time, and one night he didn't come home (not unusual as he usually stays at a friend's house). But I was shocked when he told me he'd stayed at his girlfriend's house (she still lives with her parents - she just graduated high school) in her bedroom with her parents' permission.

I couldn't believe it. No, I was not proud of my stepson for his decision, either, and told him so, but my faith in modern parents got a little tainted that day.

 

[Edward]

Ah, the Fedora Lounge.... the only place in the world where we can go from "cute article" to "TEH WORLD IS ALL GONE TO TEH HELLS IN MODERN TIMES!! OH NOES!!" in 0.3 seconds... lol

Great article Dad!

Pulled from it:
"Recent issues of Vogue, Allure and W highlighted similar looks: sunnily updated, hypercolorized pinup shots that are the fashion equivalent of comfort food. They draw on a pervasive nostalgia for “more innocent days when sexuality wasn’t portrayed as so hard core and in your face,” said Edward Enninful, the fashion and style director of W. “People kind of miss that today.”"

Do they? I hope so

I always did. Unfortunately it didn't become hip until most of the girls doing it now were too damn young for it to be anything other than creepy me looking at them. IF I'd been a lot less naive, and a lot more irresponsible, as a sixteen year old, some of them could have been my daughter now. Icky in so many ways.

As I always say when such topics come up, read "Female Chauvinist Pigs: Women and the Rise of Raunch Culture" by Ariel Levy for a look at just how serious the problem really is. A lot of very smart women in recent years have been conned into being willing participants in their own degradation.

Yeah. All goes back to the "but the women are exploiting the male audience" argument for the porn / strip club / lapdance industries. This points to the fact that women earn much more than the men and all sorts. Doesn't address the question of whether these women are exploiting themselves, however.

Quite frankly, though, I see strip clubs and hardcore porn as less influential in terms of mainstream views of women than lads' mags, popular television, cinema and so on.... it's the mainstream portrayals of women as having nothing as valuable to offer as their appearance (and, conversely, women who don't fit the mould of being conventionally attractive as being of no worth) that is the real problem. Page 3, and the attitudes that surround it, are way more concerning than any "real" pornography today, IMO.

“It’s a niche, but it’s a good-sized niche,” Mr. Glaser said. “If it becomes too mainstream, it will turn off a lot of people. These young ladies want to think of themselves as free spirits.”

I thought that was an interesting quote.

I mean this sincerely - does anyone here on the lounge think future generations of women will find "stars" like Jenna Jameson refined and modest? Is it possible for us to disintegrate to that point?

Dita might be an indication the tide is turning - as noted above, she was formerly a mainstream porn performer - her current level of celebrity has been based on adopting something more oldschool. Maybe this tiem next year she'll be fully clothed in all her shoots.

I honestly think many of the "stars" today will be forgotten with time - they simply don't have the appeal, and therefore, the staying power of the old Hollywood stars. I don't just mean the likes of Jenna Jameson but actresses like Jessica Biel/Alba, Sarah Michelle Geller etc. - they just don't have the mystique of stars like Monroe, Crawford, Hepburn (both of them), Hayworth etc. They are just not in the same league.....

The whole entertainment industry has changed. For one thing, there is so much more content nowadays. Back in the day, you went to the cinema once a week, you might not have had a TV at home, there wasn't such a thing as home video of any sort (so no cult straight to video market, at least not for the vast majority, I know there were... specialist films available). It was possible to be a "bigger" star than at time since probably the early 80s.... Further, the entertainment industry now demands turnover in a way that it doesn't seem to have done back then (not at this distance, anyhow). The Beatles took four albums to hit their stride. These days, if they didn't sell 100,000 with the first they'd have been out on their ear. All that said, it's no wonder most of today's stars of any sort don't have the staying power they did back in the day.

I'm kind of confused...

I just thought that she would rather dress like this:

Instead of this:

Isn't that a good thing?

Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't read into the story that she wanted to be an actual stripper [huh] Besides, how many women on this very forum have cut Bettie bangs? Does that mean they're objectifying themselves too?

There's always got to be a line..... but it's highly subjective, and everyone will draw it somewhere different. I do believe it's possible for someone to objectify herself. Whether it's my place to call that might be another. Course, I do all the time - we all do...

That's a very good point. While such things certainly existed in the Era they've been given far more significance by modern era subculturists than they ever had in their own time: the average American in 1947 hadn't the slightest idea who Bettie Page was: she was merely an anonymous figure in those "Ten Saucy Poses For A Dollar" photo packs advertised in the back pages of the Police Gazette. Gypsy Rose Lee was well-known and even mildly respectable, but it was because she made sure people understood she wasn't just another girl taking her clothes off for money: she was a published author of books and magazine articles, and held her own on "Information Please" alongside FPA, John Kiernan and Oscar Levant. She made a point of *forcing* people to see that she was more than the sum of her Parts.

I'm not saying anything against Miss Page, by the way -- she did what she did for her own reasons and got out of it when she'd had enough -- but by the same token I wouldn't want my daughter doing that for a living. I don't criticize the people who do pinups or strip or whatever -- what I question are the social forces that convince them that they want to do those things.

It's hard to separate the fact from the fiction when it comes to Bettie, though I get the impression she was a lot sharper than she got credit for most of the time. If memory serves, what brought her to note in the mainstream was her appearance at the 1956 obscenity hearings.

Significantly, Bettie Page began her modelling career at twenty-nine, and was in her early-mid thirties at its peak. At least her audience were looking at a woman. Half the problem with the image of femininity created by today's media is that the women are all too often little girls. Bettie at last was old enough to know what she was getting into as well. FWIW, the vast majority of the contemporary porn industry is built around ladies aged between eighteen and twenty-three.

She would be boring and lifeless, like she is in all her interviews. lol

Seriously, I don't have anything against her -- I just don't see the hype. She's also been in pornographic films, which makes her no classier than Jenna!

I'm glad it's not only me... She's a very pretty lady and everything, but she always struck me as more of a well-marketed brand than anything.

I am going to add here that I have personally known a few strippers, a former prostitute, and pornography actress. I have absolutely no problems with any of these things. Talking to these women about their professions and lives really changed my mind about certain things.

Amazing how much more nuanced things become when confronted by the reality of it as opposed to in the abstract, isn't it?

I think the problem is too many modern parents don't think the messages sent are any big deal -- either because they think it's all a big joke, or they assume the kid has the sense on her own to understand the difference between reality and market-created illusions.

Or they've bought into it themselves. Somebody buys those little-girl sized Playboy-logoed t-shirts and the likes, and they're not all Victoria Beckham sized adults.