This generation of kids...

[jamespowers]

The lawsuit portion made me wonder about this:

Do many modern parents not "parent" their children but rely on others and institutions to parent their children?

From what I see in public school every day---plenty!:eusa_doh:

 

[jamespowers]

Today we seem to see polar opposites in play where in some areas the competition is so ruthless that cruelty is common place tool to weed out the imperfect and in other areas enabling is taken to an absurd degree and in the end is actually cruel.

Having someone actually think they are doing well when they really aren't is cruel in the sense that when they get into the real world, there will be quite the rude awakening.

 

[Fletch]

Depends whose real world they will be getting into. And there, we get back into the generation wars again.

 

[jamespowers]

Depends whose real world they will be getting into. And there, we get back into the generation wars again.

Well, outcome based math doesn't work in any world. 2+2 still equals 4 no matter where we are.

 

[John in Covina]

All right John - are you hinting that out and out cruelty is actually less cruel?
Is it necessary? Ought it to be tolerated?

No not at all. Cruelty has a lot of connotations to it and we all have different concepts as to what is cruel.
Take the idea of some, where you teach your kids to swim by throwing them in the water. No prior instruction just a sink or swim reality. Traumatic to a kid especially if they have to be rescued to keep from drowning. Some would say it is a viable teaching method for their children, others would not.

Take training for some sports, in the pursuit of excellence it is possible for a coach to go to far. How far is too far? I don't know.

We have standards as to abilities say something like you have to have perfect vision to be a pilot in the Air Force, is that cruel to someone that doesn't have perfect vision?

 

[JimWagner]

There's a highly cogent essay by Neal Gabler in today's Boston Globe

Interesting article. But outside of media hyperbole and the occasional example they love to throw before us I've not seen anyone like what was described, at least not around here. Not saying they don't exist, just that the article is as much illusion as the illusions they describe. To describe all or even a significant part of American society in such terms is patently absurd.

 

[jamespowers]

No not at all. Cruelty has a lot of connotations to it and we all have different concepts as to what is cruel.
Take the idea of some, where you teach your kids to swim by throwing them in the water. No prior instruction just a sink or swim reality. Traumatic to a kid especially if they have to be rescued to keep from drowning. Some would say it is a viable teaching method for their children, others would not.

Take training for some sports, in the pursuit of excellence it is possible for a coach to go to far. How far is too far? I don't know.

We have standards as to abilities say something like you have to have perfect vision to be a pilot in the Air Force, is that cruel to someone that doesn't have perfect vision?

It would be cruel to put the person without perfect vision in there if they hit a mountain in the process of learning. Some times standards are there to protect those who would otherwise go beyond their abilities and be detrimental to themselves and others.

 

[Feraud]

The lawsuit portion made me wonder about this:

Do many modern parents not "parent" their children but rely on others and institutions to parent their children?

There is no one simple answer. Some people parent their children and other do not.

Interesting article. But outside of media hyperbole and the occasional example they love to throw before us I've not seen anyone like what was described, at least not around here. Not saying they don't exist, just that the article is as much illusion as the illusions they describe. To describe all or even a significant part of American society in such terms is patently absurd.

If we apply the mindset of the parent in question in the article to people today it is not so absurd. There are too many daily examples noted in the media and our lives of absurd parenting (and the results) and behaviors of adults that fall neatly under this umbrella.

 

[jamespowers]

Interesting article. But outside of media hyperbole and the occasional example they love to throw before us I've not seen anyone like what was described, at least not around here. Not saying they don't exist, just that the article is as much illusion as the illusions they describe. To describe all or even a significant part of American society in such terms is patently absurd.

Come out to California and see loads of examples. You are safer there in NC.

 

[LizzieMaine]

The problem isn't just the "Ivy League" thing, although if you talk to teenagers today, you'll find many of them absolutely writhing under the pressure from parents and teachers to get into not just "a" college but *the* college. My own niece was brainwashed and browbeaten into going to an elite school by such advisors, and washed out after one year because she couldn't handle the culture shock. I could have said "I told you so," but I refrained.

The problem as I see it isn't the idea of personal achievement. Wanting to do something good with your life is important. The problem is when doing something "good" with your life isn't enough -- it used to be a family aspired to buy a home and live in the rest of their days. Now, the idea is you have to buy a home, trade up to a bigger one, and then another bigger one, and on and on, because otherwise "you aren't keeping up."

This type of mindless aspirationalism was a cancer on the postwar era, but it's become much, much worse since the '80s. We not only have "starter homes" now, but "starter families." It's an absolute perversion of what the American Dream ought to be.

 

[John in Covina]

There is no one simple answer. Some people parent their children and other do not.

But what I am wondering is if there is a an overall trend or trends in certain regions? We see a lot of people get huffy we the find out people are home schooling there kids which in a way is more traditional than sending your kids to school.

 

[JimWagner]

Come out to California and see loads of examples. You are safer there in NC.

Only in some ways.

We certainly have other types of weirdness here.

 

[jamespowers]

Only in some ways.

We certainly have other types of weirdness here.

Well, I am trying to get rid of as much as I can here.

 

[Feraud]

But what I am wondering is if there is a an overall trend or trends in certain regions? We see a lot of people get huffy we the find out people are home schooling there kids which in a way is more traditional than sending your kids to school.

Hard to say..

 

[John in Covina]

The problem isn't just the "Ivy League" thing, although if you talk to teenagers today, you'll find many of them absolutely writhing under the pressure from parents and teachers to get into not just "a" college but *the* college. My own niece was brainwashed and browbeaten into going to an elite school by such advisors, and washed out after one year because she couldn't handle the culture shock. I could have said "I told you so," but I refrained.

The problem as I see it isn't the idea of personal achievement. Wanting to do something good with your life is important. The problem is when doing something "good" with your life isn't enough -- it used to be a family aspired to buy a home and live in the rest of their days. Now, the idea is you have to buy a home, trade up to a bigger one, and then another bigger one, and on and on, because otherwise "you aren't keeping up."

This type of mindless aspirationalism was a cancer on the postwar era, but it's become much, much worse since the '80s. We not only have "starter homes" now, but "starter families." It's an absolute perversion of what the American Dream ought to be.

That is one of the self defining concepts. I know there are a lot of young ladies in Southern California that spend more money on leasing and insurance on a late model Mercedes or BMW then any other 2 expenses they have because you are what you drive. It's a version of consumerism that has directed whole generations of people that define themselves by what they own be it sneakers, cell phones, video games, cars, motorcycles and so on.

Every time people line up for the newest cell phone or computer or the like you see a demonstration of what is truly important...in some peoples lives. We see it when a fun distraction becomes an obbesion, people I know that define their lives by how the Dodgers or Lakers are doing.

We have a right to define our own lives but when does it move from living life and becoming a handicap? Take the people that become hoarders, did they start out that way or were their lives shaped to end up that way?

 

[AmateisGal]

The problem isn't just the "Ivy League" thing, although if you talk to teenagers today, you'll find many of them absolutely writhing under the pressure from parents and teachers to get into not just "a" college but *the* college. My own niece was brainwashed and browbeaten into going to an elite school by such advisors, and washed out after one year because she couldn't handle the culture shock. I could have said "I told you so," but I refrained.

The problem as I see it isn't the idea of personal achievement. Wanting to do something good with your life is important. The problem is when doing something "good" with your life isn't enough -- it used to be a family aspired to buy a home and live in the rest of their days. Now, the idea is you have to buy a home, trade up to a bigger one, and then another bigger one, and on and on, because otherwise "you aren't keeping up."

This type of mindless aspirationalism was a cancer on the postwar era, but it's become much, much worse since the '80s. We not only have "starter homes" now, but "starter families." It's an absolute perversion of what the American Dream ought to be.

Well said.

And may I throw something else into the conversation?

My daughter doesn't do the best in school. However, she is an immensely talented artist. I already have her with a private art tutor. Even though she will only be 11 this year, I'm already wondering about college - and if, she doesn't want to go, I should push her into it. I think there is also a trend today in our thought patterns that if you don't go to college right after high school, you'll never make the big bucks, be seen as "intelligent", etc. I have no problem with education - heck, I have a BA and an MA (but I am NOT making the big bucks). But I don't know that it's the ideal path for everyone.

I think there was a thread on this here before...but anyway. I would be more inclined to send my daughter to an art-only school or a community college instead of a 4-year college. Heck, at the price of tuition, I don't think I could afford to send her to a four-year college when the time comes.

But would it be terrible if I didn't send her to college at all if she doens't want to go? I'm thinking not...

 

[Pompidou]

Well said.

And may I throw something else into the conversation?

My daughter doesn't do the best in school. However, she is an immensely talented artist. I already have her with a private art tutor. Even though she will only be 11 this year, I'm already wondering about college - and if, she doesn't want to go, I should push her into it. I think there is also a trend today in our thought patterns that if you don't go to college right after high school, you'll never make the big bucks, be seen as "intelligent", etc. I have no problem with education - heck, I have a BA and an MA (but I am NOT making the big bucks). But I don't know that it's the ideal path for everyone.

I think there was a thread on this here before...but anyway. I would be more inclined to send my daughter to an art-only school or a community college instead of a 4-year college. Heck, at the price of tuition, I don't think I could afford to send her to a four-year college when the time comes.

But would it be terrible if I didn't send her to college at all if she doens't want to go? I'm thinking not...

Learn from me. I got a 4 year degree. I'm not using it. I went because people went. I graduated because I won't check off "Graduated High School" on a form asking "Highest Level of Education Completed" - too much personal pride. I went for history because I enjoy history, pondered the prospect of maybe teaching, and here I am, eight years later, opening my own business because I'm tired of working jobs that don't require a degree. You can force a kid to college. You might be able to force a particular major. You can force her to graduate if you've got the money. You can't force success. That comes from a different kind of motivation. I'd wholly recommend getting a degree because the college atmosphere is good for a person, as is the taste of independence and responsibility, but I wouldn't recommend it as some sort of golden ticket to success like school guidance counselors used to suggest, and probably still do. A BA is the new high school diploma. Just getting a degree of any sort puts you at base level of employability. I suppose for that, getting something is worthwhile, but I'm pretty mixed on how useful it really is if you don't have a specific purpose in mind.

 

[AmateisGal]

I have my BA and MA in history and I'm not using either (unless you count all the personal research I do that I don't get paid for), so I know exactly how you feel.

I guess we have a few years to think about it. Here's the odd thing - I already feel the pressure to start putting money away for college, etc., like it's just a given that she'll go. I guess that's what I was trying to get at. It's just expected anymore that you just go straight to college after high school. I don't know that college is what she will want.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I've published a book, held numerous responsible jobs in the media, am considered an authority in my field, have been a professional writer for 25 years, and never went to college. I've *accomplished* a lot without a degree. But I earn about $30 grand a year, because the things I'm good at and care about are not valued by the culture.

So, there's the dilemma. If you want to earn the big bucks and have the big house and have the trophy family and the trophy friends, well, in this day and age, you aren't going to do it on a high school diploma. But it's possible to be perfectly contented with your life without a college degree. It's a question of where your priorities lie.

 

[John in Covina]

The vast majority of my friends that got a degree are not working in a field related to their education. Out this way we have jobs posted requiring a masters that pay $15 an hour.