This generation of kids...

[LizzieMaine]

Actually, I disagree with you, but I don't dislike you. I think I'd really have to know you well to dislike you.

 

[Geesie]

I, for one, could never have predicted that a thread complaining about an entire generation would have provoked strong reaction.

 

[Delthayre]

If you plan to chop it, beware that my neck is rather thick

This whole thread is rife with severe judgments that seem held up by anecdote and assertion. Does it mean all that much for 'teens' as a entire, heterogeneous group constituting a significant cohort of a large population distributed over a very large area if someone observed some of them being 'rude'? It seems awfully presumptuous to make strong assertions from such scattered and quite possibly biased observations and shortsighted given how unstable and transitory adolescence is. And in all of the fury over their not being carpenters nobody seems to have considered their social attitudes on matters such as race and gender roles. Perhaps one does not value those things, which if true might suggest that this is really about groups complaining that 'those other people' don't share and conform to their values, whatever those happen to be.

And besides, the youth weren't the one who started a thread for moaning about their opposites.

I can hire someone who didn't go to college and learn three languages to do life's mundane work, provided the directions aren't on the internet. Just playing devil's advocate.

I didn't go to college, but I don't think you could afford my fee.

PS -- Did you major in classism?

He expressed that in a crass manner, although it seems less so when the entire post is considered, but I think that his point was potentially meritorious. If there are professional carpenters or electricians or what-have-yous whom I can hire to better perform tasks than I could without similarly devoting much of my time and attention to learning the appropriate trade, why should I not exploit their gainful employment so long as I do not consider the monetary cost to be less than the opportunity cost of doing the task myself? One might think that I am misjudging the opportunity costs of doing the task myself or assign a high moral value to doing them myself, but the first is difficult to honestly assess from the perch of an observer and the second would probably be an irreconcilable difference of values.

 

[James71]

I majored in history -

Theres no future in history.

 

[LizzieMaine]

And besides, the youth weren't the one who started a thread for moaning about their opposites.

Like all such threads, this one has gone off on tangents, but I think if you go back to the beginning of the thread, it was intended more a critique of current trends in education, not a bashing of youth. Note my own post early on --

I'll go out on a limb here -- I don't have kids of my own. But I do work with teenagers on a daily basis, and I'll say first off that the kids I hire are the ones who don't fit the modern stereotype. The kids I hire *are* respectful, diligent, hard-working, responsible, and all the things we gripe about modern teens not being. But to find these kids, I have to sift thru a lot of kids who fit the modern stereotype to a T.

I think the difference is that the kids who don't fit the stereotype are the ones who've been taught self reliance. They've been required by their parents to solve problems for themselves, to clean up after themselves, to face the consequences of their own mistakes, and to generally learn adult responsibilities at an early age. This has nothing to do with school and everything to do with the attitude of the parents: the parents of the "good kids" are the ones who are willing to let go, and let their kids fall on their faces once in a while. The parents who insist on controlling and stage-managing and cushioning their offspring's every move are the parents of kids who are going to grow up self-absorbed, entitled, and irresponsible. Because they know mommy and daddy will be right there behind them to kiss their boo-boos and make them better.

I've had experience with both kinds of kids in a workplace setting, and I think I've dealt with enough of them over the years to have a pretty reasonable idea of where the prevailing mindsets are, and where they come from. We've gone thru a lot of talk since then, but I still stand by what I said above.

 

[reetpleat]

There are arguments for both sides of this.

If we artificially build self-esteem, we have generally happier kids. If we let them succeed and fail, like normal people do every day, we’ll have some kids who will cope and learn from it, and some who won’t (as well). Again, you cant generalize about any one method, and cant force specificity onto any group of people such as kids/teenagers.

The point is, everyone is different, and this is why we have people to fill in all the various positions that exist in society. Not everyone is gonna be a Donald Trump (perhaps not the best example), and not everyone is gonna be a, lets say, a sanitation engineer (my apologies – not meant as offensive to SE’s).

The truth is, as you look up the ladder of success, there is way less room the higher you go. Who gets there and how is dependent on a lot of factors. Is it possible that child A, if handled differently when they lost that little league world series game would’ve become the next Derek Jeter when he grew up instead of quitting baseball at the tender age of 9, while child B, treated the same way, made the major leagues? There’s really no way to know. Everyone is different, and the game unfolds as it does, for each person as it happens.

True, firstly, I figure we won't know for twenty years or so what is really successful. No old person crabbing proves a thing. maybe the next generation will be happier and more successful.

Also, you are quite right. You can beat kids self esteem down and he may be successful to defy you, or he may believe you. You can teach a kid to fight for what he wants and one kid will and another will not.

But in the end, i have heard that praising a kid for trying or putting in effort is better than praising them for being good, smart, etc. if they associate praise with working hard and trying, then they will seek that good feeling all the time.

So, the child is "coddled" in a way. he is praised for trying, win or lose. but, in the end, he is taught to try hard, so that should make some of the old cranks happy.

 

[reetpleat]

See and here is when I must say...part of the self esteem 'everyone needs to go to college' you can be successful ' stuff that is pushed to all kids these days...

one of the side effects of that is that everyone is told they too CAN be Donald Trump....and should go to college...since thats the stepping stone...

Rather then acknowledging that perhaps they are better suited to something else, and perhaps attending a trade school and being the worlds best electrician or plumber...they try college and fail at it, because we have set up a system (at least here in the states) where the other options are not really promoted anymore.

This has lead to a real gap for people between the unskilled labor and the college educated groups....and people doing those careers as a 'well I failed out of...' option...instead of a valued choice and member of society.

Problem is though, that traditionally, working class kids and minorities are channeled into trade schools or not going to college. this is wrong. every kid should be taught that they can go to college. It really is a major step up the economic and class ladder.

If a kid decides he is not suited to college, and wants to study a trade or maybe start a business, I find that acceptable, but only if this is a true choice between college and not. So, no offense to the trades, but excepting the skilled trades, most non college jobs tend to be difficult on the body, boring, low paying, little security, etc. obviously the skilled trades and professions such as fire, police, military, and entrepreneurs etc are not so much. Or, some are fortunate enough to get into a profession in which they train or teach themselves and become quite valuable. But, in general, college and post college education is the doorway to better pay and work situation. And College should be an option to everyone.

 

[Pompidou]

Problem is though, that traditionally, working class kids and minorities are channeled into trade schools or not going to college. this is wrong. every kid should be taught that they can go to college. It really is a major step up the economic and class ladder.

If a kid decides he is not suited to college, and wants to study a trade or maybe start a business, I find that acceptable, but only if this is a true choice between college and not. So, no offense to the trades, but excepting the skilled trades, most non college jobs tend to be difficult on the body, boring, low paying, little security, etc. obviously the skilled trades and professions such as fire, police, military, and entrepreneurs etc are not so much. Or, some are fortunate enough to get into a profession in which they train or teach themselves and become quite valuable. But, in general, college and post college education is the doorway to better pay and work situation. And College should be an option to everyone.

There is a movement growing that aims to change the American work ethic - not the youth work ethic - the American work ethic, where blue collar is below us, something to be avoided - outsourced. Check out http://www.mikeroweworks.com/. You'll recognize the founder from Dirty Jobs, the TV show. There's a lot of merit to it. It's not a problem with today's youth that trades and blue collar jobs are held in disdain. It's a national problem that goes back a couple generations. We do need those jobs. That said, we need to avoid an "Us vs Them" situation. Mike Rowe is shooting for a hybrid blue/white collar worker - a muddy boots engineer, in other words.

 

[The Lonely Navigator]

That's a neat site.

I've always liked to watch Mike Rowe when I could (as my favorite show is Deadliest Catch and have always thought Dirty Jobs was a funny show to watch).

 

[Miss Neecerie]

There is a movement growing that aims to change the American work ethic - not the youth work ethic - the American work ethic, where blue collar is below us, something to be avoided - outsourced. Check out http://www.mikeroweworks.com/. You'll recognize the founder from Dirty Jobs, the TV show. There's a lot of merit to it. It's not a problem with today's youth that trades and blue collar jobs are held in disdain. It's a national problem that goes back a couple generations. We do need those jobs. That said, we need to avoid an "Us vs Them" situation. Mike Rowe is shooting for a hybrid blue/white collar worker - a muddy boots engineer, in other words.

And if you go back and re-read what I posted about this....its precisely what I meant...I was not complaining about the youth...rather the system that promotes only one form of education as 'desirable or worthy of advancement'...



failed out of...' option...instead of a valued choice and member of society.

Problem is though, that traditionally, working class kids and minorities are channeled into trade schools or not going to college. this is wrong. every kid should be taught that they can go to college. It really is a major step up the economic and class ladder.

So instead of figuring out how not to be racist and classist etc....we just tell everyone they MUST go to college to achieve in this country. Not -can- but MUST.....

I don't think thats a good solution to the issue either.

 

[Feraud]

And besides, the youth weren't the one who started a thread for moaning about their opposites.

Because the spoiled brats are too lazy. In my day we constantly griped about our elders!


Just kidding!! lol

 

[LizzieMaine]

And if you go back and re-read what I posted about this....its precisely what I meant...I was not complaining about the youth...rather the system that promotes only one form of education as 'desirable or worthy of advancement'...



failed out of...' option...instead of a valued choice and member of society....

So instead of figuring out how not to be racist and classist etc....we just tell everyone they MUST go to college to achieve in this country. Not -can- but MUST.....

I don't think thats a good solution to the issue either.

Whatever the solution is, it has to include a confrontation of the essential classism -- let's call it what it is, class bigotry -- at its root. The assumption is made that if you didn't go to college, your only alternative is to work in a factory or in a road gang or to sweep the floor and cook the food and raise the kids of those who did. Because I can "pass" as a college-educated person when it suits me to do so, I hear this sort of casual *bigotry* all the time from the same sort of people who can't wait to tell you how enlightened they are on all matters of social justice, but gawdawmighty, they wouldn't be caught dead at a Wal-Mart, because "just look at *those people*" It's exactly the sort of pious hypocrisy that the folks at "Stuff White People Like" make such lacerating fun of, but in the real world it's nowhere near as funny.

 

[Miss Neecerie]

Whatever the solution is, it has to include a confrontation of the essential classism -- let's call it what it is, class bigotry -- at its root. The assumption is made that if you didn't go to college, your only alternative is to work in a factory or in a road gang or to sweep the floor and cook the food and raise the kids of those who did. Because I can "pass" as a college-educated person when it suits me to do so, I hear this sort of casual *bigotry* all the time from the same sort of people who can't wait to tell you how enlightened they are on all matters of social justice, but gawdawmighty, they wouldn't be caught dead at a Wal-Mart, because "just look at *those people*" It's exactly the sort of pious hypocrisy that the folks at "Stuff White People Like" make such lacerating fun of, but in the real world it's nowhere near as funny.

Oh I agree....

I just sort of thing solving it by swinging the other way, and telling every single student that they are destined for college, doesn't really solve it either...just puts it off until further down the line...when a job interviewer sees an 'ethnic name' or hears a 'lower class' voice coming from someone with a degree ....and then degree or not..they pick the middle class person for the job.


And what a shock that is....'but wait...I was told I could better myself by having a 4 year degree'

 

[LizzieMaine]

Oh I agree....

I just sort of thing solving it by swinging the other way, and telling every single student that they are destined for college, doesn't really solve it either...just puts it off until further down the line...when a job interviewer sees an 'ethnic name' or hears a 'lower class' voice coming from someone with a degree ....and then degree or not..they pick the middle class person for the job.


And what a shock that is....'but wait...I was told I could better myself by having a 4 year degree'

Heh. That's one reason why I got rid of my Maine accent when I was still in high school. If you want to get anywhere here, even back then, you have to sound like you're "from away." The condescension that drips from the Educated Middle Class toward the local working-class folk here makes me want to impale them on a lobster fork.

This afternoon I'm going to be interviewing candidates for a popcorn-selling job. Looking over the applications, I see two people with Masters' in education, one certified acupuncturist, and a marketing B. A. Each of them has been out of work for at least six months. I wonder what they're thinking?

 

[AmateisGal]

This afternoon I'm going to be interviewing candidates for a popcorn-selling job. Looking over the applications, I see two people with Masters' in education, one certified acupuncturist, and a marketing B. A. Each of them has been out of work for at least six months. I wonder what they're thinking?

Oh my GOODNESS.

 

[reetpleat]

And if you go back and re-read what I posted about this....its precisely what I meant...I was not complaining about the youth...rather the system that promotes only one form of education as 'desirable or worthy of advancement'...



failed out of...' option...instead of a valued choice and member of society.




So instead of figuring out how not to be racist and classist etc....we just tell everyone they MUST go to college to achieve in this country. Not -can- but MUST.....

I don't think thats a good solution to the issue either.

Nope. Correcting racism and classism is not the same as being politically correct. The solution is to give every kid a good education, placing emphasis on the value of education and the option of higher learning. If a child is steered towards the trades, or not college, it should be because they might be better suited to something else, not their class, their race, or even their prior performance. many poor kids get bad educations and with a little remedial help, could excel at college.


Then every kid has the option, and can choose if college is for them.

 

[Undertow]

I agree, Miss Neecerie; I believe far too much weight is given to college education. College education isn't for everyone, just as construction work isn't for everyone. I also agree that a more positive emphasis should be placed on blue collar workers.

But see, this line of discusson is a huge can of worms. You start skirting marxism, communism, elitism, capitalism, etc., and those aren't topics the board likes to see.

There will always be smart people and dumb people, hard workers and layabouts, rich and poor; and each group will bite their thumbs at the other. And likewise, as this thread has shown, there are mature vs. immature, young vs. aged, new vs. old; and each of those groups will bite their thumbs for one reason or another.

I'm a relatively young guy, but I can say without a doubt, things seemed to have changed. Yeah, old people have been shaking their fists at kids for ages; but did those kids fire a sawed-off shotgun in return? Perhaps that's the line of discussion we should be following?

Here's an example: what about the Old West? Young gunslingers killing people in the streets? Are we closer to those days, but on a larger scale? Did we ever really change?

 

[Undertow]

Nope. Correcting racism and classism is not the same as being politically correct. The solution is to give every kid a good education, placing emphasis on the value of education and the option of higher learning. If a child is steered towards the trades, or not college, it should be because they might be better suited to something else, not their class, their race, or even their prior performance. many poor kids get bad educations and with a little remedial help, could excel at college.


Then every kid has the option, and can choose if college is for them.

Excellent point!

 

[reetpleat]

Whatever the solution is, it has to include a confrontation of the essential classism -- let's call it what it is, class bigotry -- at its root. The assumption is made that if you didn't go to college, your only alternative is to work in a factory or in a road gang or to sweep the floor and cook the food and raise the kids of those who did. Because I can "pass" as a college-educated person when it suits me to do so, I hear this sort of casual *bigotry* all the time from the same sort of people who can't wait to tell you how enlightened they are on all matters of social justice, but gawdawmighty, they wouldn't be caught dead at a Wal-Mart, because "just look at *those people*" It's exactly the sort of pious hypocrisy that the folks at "Stuff White People Like" make such lacerating fun of, but in the real world it's nowhere near as funny.

You are correct, but I think the classism that keeps kids out of college is far worse than the classism that looks down on those without a college education.

Firstly, the latter does not harm people much. Those smart or energetic and motivated will eventually do well. Those who do not will not. But in the end, it is not looking down on them so much for their class as for their choice not to go to college. So, they are being judged for a choice, not their class.

On the other hand, if a kid is discouraged or never considers college, they are suffering due to others' classism. A far worse fate. I am not saying that anyone hass to or should go to college. But it is quite clear that in general, it is the way to go if you want to better yourself, your class position, and the future of your children.

To give it a historic spin, look what happened when all those smart, but working class youth came back from the war and had a chance to go to college. hey jumped at it and studied the hard sciences, which resulted in a boom in the economy.

 

[reetpleat]

My dad says, "the society that values it's philosophers above it's plumbers will be in trouble, as neither their ideas nor their pipes will hold water." A worth sentiment.

We need skilled craftspeople.

But th3e writing is on the wall. Those who insist on maintaining the skill and training level equal or less than their peers in other countries are doomed to underemployment.

On the other hand, when skilled workers are available around the world, the only way to benefit and rise above in this country is through a level of skill that is superior to those in other countries.

Now, weather that skill and training is in a trade school, on the job, self taught or in college is not so important. but in this high tech world, College is a major gateway to many of the jobs that will be secure in the future, and benefit from globalization instead of suffering from it.