This generation of kids...

[AmateisGal]

I'm a relatively young guy, but I can say without a doubt, things seemed to have changed. Yeah, old people have been shaking their fists at kids for ages; but did those kids fire a sawed-off shotgun in return? Perhaps that's the line of discussion we should be following?

Here's an example: what about the Old West? Young gunslingers killing people in the streets? Are we closer to those days, but on a larger scale? Did we ever really change?

This is an excellent question, Undertow, and one that I think needs some serious consideration. I think the problems of this generation are not just "typical" growing pains - there is something deeper at work here. Schools should not be war zones.

 

[LizzieMaine]

You are correct, but I think the classism that keeps kids out of college is far worse than the classism that looks down on those without a college education.

Firstly, the latter does not harm people much. Those smart or energetic and motivated will eventually do well. Those who do not will not. But in the end, it is not looking down on them so much for their class as for their choice not to go to college. So, they are being judged for a choice, not their class.

And, see, that brings us right back to the point Neecerie made: it's the choice itself that's being stigmatised in modern culture.

I didn't go to college for a number of reasons. One of them was because, in the culture I was raised in, it wasn't considered essential. No one in my family has ever had any kind of a degree, but when I was growing up we were respected members of the community just the same. We paid our bills, earned our living, and carried on a useful role in society. College wasn't considered a must in that time and in that place, so I wasn't pushed in that direction. The second reason was financial -- the financial aid options of that era were very different from those of today, and we just didn't have the money. And the third was personal -- I found the whole college culture revolting: the drinking, the drugs, the general sexual sleaze of the late seventies. It wasn't anything I wanted anything to do with.

So I didn't go. I went straight to work, right out of high school, got into radio, worked my way up, eventually became a News Director at one of the leading stations in the state, won a wall full of awards, went on to write a book that's been very well received in the broadcasting-history community -- and is in the libraries of most of the major universities in the US, and several abroad -- have provided research assistance to I forget how many other authors, and am quoted in practically every serious book on radio history published in the last ten years. Now, there's no money to be made in being a broadcasting historian, so I manage a theatre to make ends meet, and in *that* job I often lecture on popular culture topics to audiences full of MAs and PhDs.

*And I didn't need to go to college to do any of that.* Should I be looked down on because of that choice? Do I need to have sat in a classroom thirty years ago to validate what I've learned in the real world since? Or is the work validation enough in itself? I say it is, and it should be for anyone else who is capable of doing what I did. You can suck at the fountain of Formal Education until you're waterlogged, but it isn't the *only* way to learn, and it shouldn't be fetishized as such the way it is by modern culture.

You can see, then, why I take such a dim view of the "I can hire people who didn't go to college to sew on my buttons" type of attitude. Sew your own damn buttons on, Professor. I've got more important things to do.

 

[Pompidou]

You can see, then, why I take such a dim view of the "I can hire people who didn't go to college to sew on my buttons" type of attitude. Sew your own damn buttons on, Professor. I've got more important things to do.

For every demand, there's a career. It's a good thing. You might not sew buttons, but others will. In fact, before I opted to "sew my own damn buttons" I went to one of them. There's a dry cleaning company down the street from me, and for five dollars, they'll sew buttons. I could care less about the five dollars, and was all set to let them do it, but they said it'd take a few days, so I drove to Walmart and got the supplies myself. Didn't take all day - ten minutes for two buttons, and that was being careful and following instructions. It's not a bad thing to pay people to do their jobs. It's an economy. At some point, you've got to make a choice about how you want to spend your time.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Nothing wrong with that. But that's not the same as saying "I can hire people who didn't go to college..." to sew on my buttons. You made an overtly classist assumption there -- that people who sew on buttons for a living are those who didn't go to college -- and I'm calling you on it, just the same as I'd call out anyone who made a similarly overt racist or sexist remark in a thread where I'm posting. And I'm not challenging you on this to be obnoxious, I'm challenging you to think. Because the older you get the more thinking you're going to have to do.

 

[Pompidou]

And conversely, I was calling you out on the idea that going to college and learning three languages, but not knowing how to sew on a button is a failure of modern culture. It goes both ways, and if I can be juvenile for a moment, your side started it.

EDIT: I noticed you were quick to defend button sewers, but pretty much left a handful of rather vile rants against all youth untouched. Holding a high moral ground against various "ists" which are usually bad is great, but don't just do so when it's convenient. I'd say my arguably tasteful comment on hiring button sewers was tame compared to the posts that preceded it.

 

[Lady Day]

This afternoon I'm going to be interviewing candidates for a popcorn-selling job. Looking over the applications, I see two people with Masters' in education, one certified acupuncturist, and a marketing B. A. Each of them has been out of work for at least six months. I wonder what they're thinking?

Thats one reason I started leaving my degrees off job applications (sans ones in my field) because I wouldn't be taken seriously, or, Id be looked at as someone who who wouldnt work hard because I would fly as soon as something better came along.

Yeah, Im sure these applicants dont want to sling popcorn, but being out of work for a year or more, Im sure they would take pride in just working again.

Dont count them out, Lizzie.

LD

 

[LizzieMaine]

And conversely, I was calling you out on the idea that going to college and learning three languages, but not knowing how to sew on a button is a failure of modern culture. It goes both ways, and if I can be juvenile for a moment, your side started it.

Well, you don't see it as a failing of modern culture, but I do. We can disagree on that. I see it as symptomatic of a culture that fails to encourage self-reliance -- "I can get someone else to do this, so why should I?"

But members of my generation were taught "Don't expect someone else to do everything for you. Do it *yourself.*" I asked my grandmother to sew the troop number on my Brownie uniform when I was seven years old, and she sat me down and showed me how to do it. "You need to know this sort of thing," she said, "and this is how you do it." And I never had to expect someone else to do that for me again. I thought that was a valuable lesson in a lot of ways, because *not having to depend on others to do things you can do yourself is ultimately freeing.* You don't have to worry if they'll be there when you need them, or if they can fit you in or what it might cost, or any of that. *YOU* can do it yourself.

I firmly believe in that ethos to this day. I wouldn't take out my own appendix or pull my own teeth -- but I think that's about the only thing I'd ask someone else to do. (I''m speaking hyperbolically, but you get the idea.) The reality is, anything around the house, or anything around work that needs to be done, I know how to do, because I was taught that any self-respecting person is as self-sufficient as possible. So when it needs to be done, I do it. And it doesn't take up any more of my time, really, than the time I spend messing around on the internet. In fact, I can sew a button with one hand and type with the other. Takes no time at all.

I don't think dependency is a positive virtue. I don't think people should depend on anyone for anything they're capable of doing for themselves. I don't see much positive about a culture that encourages such dependency as a matter of course. And I think it's sad and unfortunate that we have college grads today, full-grown functional adults, who have to ask someone else to sew on their buttons.

 

[1961MJS]

Nothing wrong with that. But that's not the same as saying "I can hire people who didn't go to college..." to sew on my buttons. You made an overtly classist assumption there -- that people who sew on buttons for a living are those who didn't go to college -- ...

Hi, the thing that is wrong here is that these people have "wasted" their time and money for college (at least for now) because the only jobs available are selling popcorn. American Education has harped on college for years, but fails to take the experiences of manual labor into consideration. (note that I have a BSEE and both parents have Masters in Education). One of the guys I went to High School with is a steelworker. He started right out of high school. He thinks it's hilarious that he can look at their blue prints and see where the engineers have screwed up. He walks on the steel and knows what's really there...

Another guy I work with in 4H is a building engineer for the local school system. He is certified in Mechanical, Electrical, and probably structural contracting. He's 62 or 63 and there's no one to take his place. No one thinks that there's any money in it... He fixes the plumbing, furnaces, water fountains etc.

The neighbor kid is at Illinois working on a Political Science degree. Illinois just gave their President a $170,000 a year raise (yes Raise), and upped the tuition another $901 a semester. It was already $11,000 a year, so how's that ever gonna be worth while?

Rant over for now. lol

 

[Pompidou]

Teaching people to be willing to settle is going to be pretty important. Not everyone can be an astronaut when they grow up. If unemployment is at what, 10% these days, but more realistically 20% if you go by practical definitions and not state definitions, underemployment is even worse. I was underemployed. for quite a while. I got lucky and fell into the right crowd in the last couple years and am finally able to break out of the slump, but it's certainly not easy. Most people will have to settle for less, at least until the economy recovers.

EDIT: I agree with at least one of the cores of your argument, Lizzie. I do think people should try to be self reliant. I don't think there's an argument against that. But, I've got an anecdote. I'm opening my own cafe - it's how I'm breaking out of the slump. It's a worker cooperative - said activists are the people I fell into. So, the deal is, I have to take on every "employee" as an equal owner. It's different. I like it. I already had one partner, and we were cut from the same thread so to speak. I had to take on a third owner. He asked me why in the world I would want him. He thought he was dumb because he didn't do college or anything. I said, "Everyone's pretty much equally smart, I think. We all have about the same brain capacity, for what it's worth. It's just a matter of what you choose to fill it with. I think of brains like empty boxes. I just chose to fill my box with books. Some people choose to fill theirs with sports stats. I don't know anything about those, but I'm not dumb. You filled yours with other things. They're both full. That's what counts. You're 20 years older than me, and we could use someone with real life experience. My creativity and his math will only take us so far." I don't hold anything against people who don't have institutional book smarts.

EDIT 2: Forgot to add my point... So yeah, you chose to fill your brain with certain things - radio, button sewing, etc - I couldn't begin to complete the list, I'm sure. I chose to fill mine with other things - history, french, button sewing, etc. It's totally impossible to know it all. Self reliance is great, but there are only 24 hours in a day. For every hour one spends learning to fix a toilet, one isn't learning how to say, play the piano. That's my general stance on things. I value learning the impractical equally to learning the practical. I wouldn't trade my brain full of useless trivia for anything.

 

[Geesie]

Hi, the thing that is wrong here is that these people have "wasted" their time and money for college (at least for now) because the only jobs available are selling popcorn. American Education has harped on college for years, but fails to take the experiences of manual labor into consideration. (note that I have a BSEE and both parents have Masters in Education). One of the guys I went to High School with is a steelworker. He started right out of high school. He thinks it's hilarious that he can look at their blue prints and see where the engineers have screwed up. He walks on the steel and knows what's really there...

Another guy I work with in 4H is a building engineer for the local school system. He is certified in Mechanical, Electrical, and probably structural contracting. He's 62 or 63 and there's no one to take his place. No one thinks that there's any money in it... He fixes the plumbing, furnaces, water fountains etc.

The neighbor kid is at Illinois working on a Political Science degree. Illinois just gave their President a $170,000 a year raise (yes Raise), and upped the tuition another $901 a semester. It was already $11,000 a year, so how's that ever gonna be worth while?

It's gonna be worthwhile because

In less than 3 years that college degree will have paid for itself.

And check those unemployment rates, too.

 

[John in Covina]

Personally I have seen more business go out of business or be put out of business being run by people with degrees than non-degreed people.:eusa_doh:

 

[LizzieMaine]

EDIT 2: Forgot to add my point... So yeah, you chose to fill your brain with certain things - radio, button sewing, etc - I couldn't begin to complete the list, I'm sure. I chose to fill mine with other things - history, french, button sewing, etc. It's totally impossible to know it all. Self reliance is great, but there are only 24 hours in a day. For every hour one spends learning to fix a toilet, one isn't learning how to say, play the piano. That's my general stance on things. I value learning the impractical equally to learning the practical. I wouldn't trade my brain full of useless trivia for anything.

Well, see, I don't believe in limiting one's mind either -- I can discuss the ramifications of the Neutrality Act of 1939 with one person, whether Jackie Robinson was out or safe at the plate in the first game of the 1955 World Series with another, why the inverted-pyramid style of newswriting is ineffective and inappropriate for feature reporting with yet another, the impact of rural electrification on the growth of network broadcasting with somebody else, how Dior sold the New Look to an unwilling public with yet another person, and the significance of Biblical and Marxist allegory in Fritz Lang's "Metropolis" to an audience of film scholars. *AND* I can repair a television set, unstop a drain, fix a toilet, calibrate the ratio of water to syrup on a soda fountain, bake a loaf of bread, cut my own hair into a properly-layered middy, set the valves on an air-cooled Volkswagen, re-tile a bathroom wall, defrost a refrigerator, and strip, clean, oil, and retime a Singer 66 sewing machine before using it to sew on a button.

The point is, if you think you don't have time to learn the practical alongside the impractical, or that one compromises your ability to learn another, you're limiting yourself in ways you can't even imagine. I'm guessing I'm at least twice your age, so I've had a lot more time to learn these things, and I didn't learn them all at once. I learned them as I needed to, as the circumstances presented themselves, and there are things yet that I intend to learn before it's time to cash out my till. Because I don't have to wait for someone else to teach them to me -- I know I can do it myself.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Thats one reason I started leaving my degrees off job applications (sans ones in my field) because I wouldn't be taken seriously, or, Id be looked at as someone who who wouldnt work hard because I would fly as soon as something better came along.

Yeah, Im sure these applicants dont want to sling popcorn, but being out of work for a year or more, Im sure they would take pride in just working again.

Dont count them out, Lizzie.

LD

Oh, I won't -- I'd actually prefer to hire someone with a bit more experience in the world than the typical high school kid, especially since one of the shifts I need to fill is on Tuesday afternoons. I really hate being the person who has to make this decision, in fact, because I know how it is to be willing to take whatever job one can get. The economy is no respecter of education, at least not around here: I know plenty of guys with degrees who are selling clams at the side of the road. (It's gonna take more than a couple years to pay off their student loans, too. Seafood prices aren't too good right now.)

 

[James71]

My learning began when I finished my degree and got my first job in my chosen field. I came out of uni a blank canvas.

Having said that, there is no chance of getting a start in my profession without that piece of paper so it wasnt a complete waste of time. It also gave me 5 years to "learn how to learn" and to do a whole lot of growing up, which others may not need but I sure did.

 

[1961MJS]

It's gonna be worthwhile because

In less than 3 years that college degree will have paid for itself.

And check those unemployment rates, too.

Hi, that chart is from 2008 and we probably aren't going back there. Secondly and more importantly, those numbers can't be true for all Bachelors, Masters, and Doctoral degrees. Unlike American's degrees aren't created equal. My starting salary as an engineer was $2,000 more a year than one of the Assistant History Professors at UIUC in 1983. He had 10 years experience and I worked with him as a security guard. He needed the money and he made thousands of pages of copies of his books to send to prospective publishers...

For at least 75% of the degrees currently available at major universities, there is no ECONOMICAL reason for them to exist at the current price. NONE. English Literature, History, Poly Sci., Geography, Education, Music, etc. They're all interesting, difficult, and it takes a lot of work to get one, but they don't pay off. I have no clue what happened to my old college, but a family of 4, making $75,000 a year shouldn't have to rely on scholarships, or loans to go to a state school.

Later

 

[Pompidou]

When I went to college, one of my most influential professors - not even a professor, a grad student - told me (well, the class) not to do college just for the money, that it's better to go because you want to learn something. Thus, a history major was born. My own personal motto is, "Never let reality and common sense get in the way of a good idea". Do what you want and life has a way of making it work if you try hard enough. I went to college because life is all about acquiring status symbols. If I'm anything, it's materialistic, even more so than arrogant. I judge myself on my accomplishments, and most of those are things I wanted that I got. I have a degree. I don't aim to use it. I just wanted to have it. My employment is my own destiny. My degree is mostly to say, "Yeah me too," when someone starts bragging about their education. I hate being 2nd.

 

[Geesie]

Hi, that chart is from 2008 and we probably aren't going back there. Secondly and more importantly, those numbers can't be true for all Bachelors, Masters, and Doctoral degrees. Unlike American's degrees aren't created equal. My starting salary as an engineer was $2,000 more a year than one of the Assistant History Professors at UIUC in 1983. He had 10 years experience and I worked with him as a security guard. He needed the money and he made thousands of pages of copies of his books to send to prospective publishers...

Yes, I did see that date on the chart. However, as unemployment has risen it has continued along those lines. The numbers are higher but relative to each other they haven't changed much. The more education you have, the less likely you are to lose your job and the more money you are likely to make.

For at least 75% of the degrees currently available at major universities, there is no ECONOMICAL reason for them to exist at the current price. NONE. English Literature, History, Poly Sci., Geography, Education, Music, etc. They're all interesting, difficult, and it takes a lot of work to get one, but they don't pay off. I have no clue what happened to my old college, but a family of 4, making $75,000 a year shouldn't have to rely on scholarships, or loans to go to a state school.

Later

Are you asserting that the huge pay difference between high school diploma and Bachelors degree is due to only 25% of degrees? I would have to see some evidence of that. I know several people who have these degrees that "don't pay off" who got hired into middle management instead of labor simply because they have any degree.

 

[Miss Neecerie]

Are you asserting that the huge pay difference between high school diploma and Bachelors degree is due to only 25% of degrees? I would have to see some evidence of that. I know several people who have these degrees that "don't pay off" who got hired into middle management instead of labor simply because they have any degree.

And this is part of my issue with the over emphasizing of college degrees.

When a degree in say underwater basket weaving gets you a management job in an unrelated business, then that to me is happening because the system is broken.

And sorry, after two degrees, that bs line about learning to learn. Haha makes me laugh. University teaches you how to work the system to get good grades, that does not always coincide with actual absorption of materials.

 

[James71]

And sorry, after two degrees, that bs line about learning to learn. Haha makes me laugh. University teaches you how to work the system to get good grades, that does not always coincide with actual absorption of materials.

With all due respect Miss Neecerie I was educated in a very different educational system to that which you have enjoyed, no doubt in a very different discipline with significantly different expectations. My university education was also a long time ago. In spite of my 'BS' education I am fortunate enough to be considered the leading expert in my field in this country.

So... I can almost guarantee that your limited experience would have ill prepared you to comment on the "BS" of my education.

 

[Geesie]

And this is part of my issue with the over emphasizing of college degrees.

When a degree in say underwater basket weaving gets you a management job in an unrelated business, then that to me is happening because the system is broken.

And sorry, after two degrees, that bs line about learning to learn. Haha makes me laugh. University teaches you how to work the system to get good grades, that does not always coincide with actual absorption of materials.

Look at it this way: You're hiring new workers. You have two applicants fresh out of school. One has a high school diploma the other has a college degree. The one with the diploma may think that college is a waste of money. He may be able to do better in college than the degree guy if he actually goes. Or he could be an half-literate product of a broken public school system who couldn't make it two weeks at a university. You just don't know. What you do know about the fellow with the college degree is that he at least did well enough in high school to get into a college and that he was able to get himself up and to class (probably with a terrible hangover) and study enough to at least get a C average.
So if the job is some generic management position that requires a certain amount of decision-making and critical thinking skills - you'd usually not take the greater risk.