Theoretically speaking...

[Jovan]

I suppose. I do fall into the minority here that dresses up because they like to.

 

[Hemingway Jones]

I suppose. I do fall into the minority here that dresses up because they like to.

I think you fall into the minority in the public at large, but I am not sure if that's true with the minority here at the Lounge.

Personally, I am almost always in a jacket and tie, even on weekends. And I have to wear a suit to work.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I can assure you that I have no idea who Biltmore Bob is.

Ah, my mistake. I guess that the bb at the end of the name threw me for a loop. Please accept my apologies, and welcome to the board.

bk

 

[manton]

Boston is the capital of trad.

 

[Hemingway Jones]

I am just here to learn and post on the hat forum and hope not to disturb anybody.

I certainly hope this is the case. Perhaps you should read some of the existing threads and get a feel for the place and the tone of the discourse here, before posting further.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

inconvenient facts. 1) Vents are a relatively recent innovation, ... 2) The handful of people whom most of us would agree were among the very best dressed men of the 20th century -- Astaire, Grant, etc. -- did not wear vents.

Manton, I agree with you on practically every point you've made, except for the two above.


First, vents are not at all a recent innovation: they've been on the fashion scene since the 17th century, when Louis XIV sanctioned the long-skirted coat for court wear.


As for Fred Astaire, watch his musical films: in every one of them, including those from the 1930s, Astaire's suit jackets and sportcoats had side vents or center vents. The reason is logical: Astaire had to dance in these clothes, and vents kept the coats from impeding his movements.


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[herringbonekid]

to return to the original point: i don't know if this is the peaked lapel suit mentioned from the film, but notice how the lapels visually echo his angular face which adds to his alert, serious demeanour.

don't forget that while the fit of a suit is important it must all ultimately enhance your main feature... your face. lapel shape and size, colour and fabric are important factors as they frame the face and should compliment your natural colouring, tone and personality.

(Flusser is pretty good on this topic)

 

[manton]

First, vents are not at all a recent innovation: they've been around since the 17th century, when Louis XIV popularized the long-skirted coat.

OK, well, I meant on the modern lounge suit. Those did not routinely take vents until after WW2.

As for Fred Astaire, watch his musical films: in every one of them, including those from the 1930s, Astaire's suit jackets and sportcoats always had side vents or center vents. The reason is logical: Astaire had to dance in these clothes, and vents kept the coats from impeding his movements.

Maybe my memory is bad. I remember almost exclusively no vents on him. I have a lot of still scans of him, too, and his coats are non-vented. Ditto the pics of him in most of my books. The one scan I have of him in vents is from Funny Face (late 50s), and the vents are quite short (8" or less). The 30s scans all show him in no vents. Ditto Grant, Cooper, Bogart, etc.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

In the US, [the wearing of buttondown shirts with suits] has been common at least since the advent of the trad era in the early 50s. One iron rule, however, was no BD collar with a DB suit. Yet Astaire broke that one all the time. Not being Astaire, I personally don't dare.

Yes, and in the late 1920s Astaire wore buttoned down collars with a collar pin, which is akin to wearing a belt and suspenders at the same time. I don't think that even Astaire should have dared it.


As for wearing buttondown shirts with suits, Princetonites did that since at least 1910. F. Scott Fitzgerald wore Brooks Brothers buttondown shirts with 3-piece tweed suits during his undergraduate years there (in the 'teens), and he wasn't the only one. In fact, Fitzgerald never stopped wearing the combination.

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[iammatt]

Ah, my mistake. I guess that the bb at the end of the name threw me for a loop. Please accept my apologies, and welcome to the board.

bk

IIRC, scarmebb (if in fact the same person) was somebody who posted one of the most legendary lines of smack ever seen on Style Forum. I am not sure if he is a real guy or an alter ego of some other normal poster there, but his smack led to Jovan's discontent on that board end subsequent exodus.

From what I remember, he was actually a pretty interesting character and not really offensive.

TO add to the real discussion, I am not a big fan of peak lapels on me. I do wear buttondowns with suits and would do so with a db if the moment struck me. Due to an interesting thread on the LL site, I ordered a buttondown in a vintage fabric with double cuffs. I am not sure that I will wear it much, but we will see.

 

[Matt Deckard]

True Astaire wore with vents, very short... just a few inches and probably not as noticeable as the high cut ones on Grants jackets. Cary Grant put his hands in his pockets very often and had his vents cut accordingly. Astairees jackets were cut shorter from what I have seen and he and he was all about mobility.

The vents were around during the era of the horse and the bicycle so they are not new. In the 30's and 40's they aren't found on many suits though they can be seen on sack suits from the turn of the century (1900) and the 20's.


As for button down with a suit.
It looked good on him, and the shirt was a Double Cuff.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

OK, well, I meant on the modern lounge suit. Those did not routinely take vents until after WW2.

And this is where walls get run into. We have to be so specific about what we say. Not just "suit", but "modern suit"; and not just "modern suit", but "modern lounge suit." Sartorial guidelines and rules begin to take on the aspect of Talmudic law: put three differing scholars in a room together and you end up with five different opinions. Perhaps it's best to answer such questions with, "It depends."

.

 

[manton]

I don't think that even Astaire should have dared it.

Oh, I agree. There many things which most of us won't do but when we see it on Astaire or Grant or someone, we say, "But it looks good on him." That didn't even look good on him, if you ask me. Shudder.

As for wearing buttondown shirts with suits, Princetonites did that since at least 1910. F. Scott Fitzgerald wore Brooks Brothers buttondown shirts with 3-piece tweed suits during his undergraduate years there (in the 'teens), and he wasn't the only one. In fact, Fitzgerald never stopped wearing the combination.

True, the BD with suits thing -- like the whole trad look -- was a collegiate look before WW2. Ivy leaguers were expected to dress differently when they grew up and got jobs. The look only became acceptable for grownups in Manhattan offices after WW2.

 

[Senator Jack]

Style Forum? Isn't that we're referred to as wearing costumes? Funny how we should have some of them drifting over here.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Ivy leaguers were expected to dress differently when they grew up and got jobs. The look only became acceptable for grownups in Manhattan offices after WW2.

Very true.

There is a wonderful book that goes into this style -- and those who wore it -- in great detail. The author is a national treasure, and far ahead of her time: Elizabeth Hawes.

The book? Men Can Take It. Illustrated by James Thurber, it was published in 1939. http://www.worldcatlibraries.org/wcpa/top3mset/fb4490524a45de95.html


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[Fletch]

Sartorial guidelines and rules begin to take on the aspect of Talmudic law: put three differing scholars in a room together and you end up with five different opinions.

This pattern of thinking might be a natural inheritance from the days when one ethnic group predominated in the trade (in much the same way that professional musicians' tendency to be overly pedantic owes a lot to the days when German teaching dominated American music schools).

 

[Matt Deckard]

It's hard to argue opinion... I know.

I say Aluminum, you say Aluminium (Aluminum is correct).

 

[manton]

There is a wonderful book that goes into this style -- and those who wore it -- in great detail. The author is a national treasure, and far ahead of her time: Elizabeth Hawes.

The book? Men Can Take It. Illustrated by James Thurber, it was published in 1939. http://www.worldcatlibraries.org/wcpa/top3mset/fb4490524a45de95.html


.

Funny, I have never seen the Ask Andy trads mention this book. I will check it out.

 

[Hemingway Jones]

Each of us is the foremost authorities on our own opinions.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Funny, I have never seen the Ask Andy trads mention this book. I will check it out.

Mrs. Hawes's books have been out of print for decades, but once you pick one up, you won't be able to put it down. They were bestsellers in their time, and deservedly so. Hawes -- a clothing designer herself -- was a brilliant, witty, thoughtful and controversial writer on fashion, mores, and sociology in general. On every page, she challenges the reader to 'think outside of the box.' I've read Boyer, Flusser, and others, and none come close.


Perhaps you've heard of her most famous book: Fashion is Spinach (1938). http://www.worldcatlibraries.org/wcpa/top3mset/98912e79ab4e31dd.html

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