The Open Road Guild

[Just Daniel]

Yes, the 1937 filing includes the text style type for Vic’s hat.

The 1920 first in use filing is for the term Open Road in block type.

if what I recall from a trademarks class years ago is correct, the trademark is for the symbol, not the text. As such, characteristics such as type and script are vital to the application.

Daniel

I think the registration shown in your post filed in 1937 is the one to go with... the 2001 refile by Stetson’s brand owners looks like it is citing a guessed 1920 first use. I’ve not seen evidence of that early a date. Late 1930s is a right on for Vic’s beauty.

 

[alanfgag]

Yes, the 1937 filing includes the text style type for Vic’s hat.

The 1920 first in use filing is for the term Open Road in block type.

if what I recall from a trademarks class years ago is correct, the trademark is for the symbol, not the text. As such, characteristics such as type and script are vital to the application.

Daniel

Hi Daniel... I think we have apples and oranges here. I'm not a Justia user so can't see the filing entities but the 1937 filing was surely made by the company producing hats in Philadelphia, PA that ceased operations and filed for bankruptcy in 1986. The date of first use in trade for this filing of March 7, 1937 is a meaningful clue in establishing when the hat was brought to market. The 2001 filing was likely by the owner of the brand at that time manufacturing hats in Missouri and Texas. Their trademark filing first use date of 00-00-1920 is not helpful in understanding the introduction of the historic Stetson model. If I remember old posts correctly from Matt Deckard and others with connection to the modern brand, it appeared that very little historic information was saved after the demolition of the factory in the 1970s and the subsequent fire of 1980.

 

[Old Gus]

Wow, looks unworn! Always dug those little cowboy pins, hard to find em.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pintrill-C...467274?hash=item46b3fdd40a:g:KtIAAOSwLaVeiXEE

I happened across this cowboy pin--more too, I'd guess.
Old Gus

 

[Just Daniel]

They are definitely apples and oranges, completely separate marks.


In more detail:

Since trademarks are primarily symbols that provide exclusive manufacturing information to consumers. The Coca Cola bottle shape is a trademark that represents the brand.

Trademarks for text must specify enough to make them more than just there meaning in words. The type and font are often used for this differentiation, so the applicant can claim the words symbolize something other than their plain definition.

It is difficult to trademark just a word. Kleenex and Xerox were examples, they were made up words that only represented one specific product. The term Open Road” by itself without some drawing or design specifications would be very difficult to trademark because the term is in regular use for all kinds of things. It does not represent only hats. It needs more for a trademark.

In the 1920 first use case Stetson is specifically referencing the block type OPEN ROAD for use in hats.

The 1937 filing is for the script filing.

These specifics are indicated on line three of the report, “Marked Drawing.”

The earliest use in commerce date must, according to the USPO:

“When asserting use of a mark in commerce in a trademark or service mark application, an applicant must specify the date of first use anywhere and the date of first use in commerce, either in an original application under §1(a) of the Trademark Act, or in an allegation of use in an application under §1(b). The dates of use must be verified, i.e., supported by an affidavit or declaration under 37 C.F.R. §2.20.”

I believe it is safe to assume Stetson had some evidence of their use of the term OPEN ROAD in block text in 1920 in order to state such on their application.

That’s a bit long, I am drawing back on what I studied more than a few years ago. Some more active guys might know more.

All the best,
Daniel

Hi Daniel... I think we have apples and oranges here. I'm not a Justia user so can't see the filing entities but the 1937 filing was surely made by the company producing hats in Philadelphia, PA that ceased operations and filed for bankruptcy in 1986. The date of first use in trade for this filing of March 7, 1937 is a meaningful clue in establishing when the hat was brought to market. The 2001 filing was likely by the owner of the brand at that time manufacturing hats in Missouri and Texas. Their trademark filing first use date of 00-00-1920 is not helpful in understanding the introduction of the historic Stetson model. If I remember old posts correctly from Matt Deckard and others with connection to the modern brand, it appeared that very little historic information was saved after the demolition of the factory in the 1970s and the subsequent fire of 1980.

 

[Royce Bloom]

Could any modern Open Road owners, both 6X and Royal Deluxe, chime in on how they hold up in inclement weather? I’m not talking about a torrential downpour - more like a light or intermittent rain/snow while outside for an hour or two.

I know Akubras are workhorses for bad weather, and I have a Campdraft for that purpose. I’m looking for reassurance that if I get a Stetson it won’t get ruined because I wore it to a high school football game in light rain.

 

[M Brown]

I have both the 6x (Black) & Royal Deluxe (Natural).
They both are very durable hats and will withstand whatever elements you subject them to, just as well as an Akubra.

 

[alanfgag]

...I believe it is safe to assume Stetson had some evidence of their use of the term OPEN ROAD in block text in 1920 in order to state such on their application...

I don't want to belabor this, but I think time traveling between 1930s hat history and the modern era - speaking of a 1950 Stetson Open Road in the same breath as a 2020 Stetson Open Road - is confusing and leads to incorrect information and assumptions. This was handled well in the Stratoliner topics by making two separate threads - one for vintage and one for modern.

It is absolutely not safe to assume that the current owners of the Stetson brand have or had any evidence of an Open Road dating back to 1920. Had they access to an advertisement, trade invoice or sample photograph they would have been able to assign a date other that 00-00-1920. I have not seen any evidence of an Open Road introduction prior to 1937 - if anyone else has, please correct me. More likely the lawyer talked with the client and picked a time out of thin air that seemed appropriate. Given that the brand owner also owned the rights to all of the other competing brands of the era, it was unlikely that a complaint would be filed during the publication for opposition period.

I am not an attorney (my Mom would have liked if I were) but I do own and have assisted in the filing of several trademarks. From my understanding I think registering the trademark protected Stetson's business use of the name "Open Road" in connection with the listed products. The logotype is submitted to establish the identity, but had HCA or other brands sold a hat with the same style and dimensions and called it an Open Road they would have been subject to trademark infringement regardless of the typeface used on the sweatband and in advertisements. Virtually all competing companies had identical hats but avoided the use of the name "Open Road" as evidenced here:

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/the-other-open-roads.36972/

I don't own one, but I assume the block letters in the modern trademark filing is what appears inside the contemporary Stetson Open Road. If they decide to revive an early Stetson imprint to use in connection with these hats I expect their trademark rights to the name Open Road as used in connection with headwear would be in force notwithstanding.

 

[Royce Bloom]

Thanks, man. I really appreciate it. How do you like the natural color? I’m debating it or caribou - no one sells Stetsons within 100 miles of where I live so I don’t have a good feel for what the natural looks like. I’m afraid it’s too close to silverbelly and will be redundant to what I already own. I’m not a hat collector so I’d prefer the few hats I own be distinct.

I have both the 6x (Black) & Royal Deluxe (Natural).
They both are very durable hats and will withstand whatever elements you subject them to, just as well as an Akubra.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Thanks, man. I really appreciate it. How do you like the natural color? I’m debating it or caribou - no one sells Stetsons within 100 miles of where I live so I don’t have a good feel for what the natural looks like. I’m afraid it’s too close to silverbelly and will be redundant to what I already own. I’m not a hat collector so I’d prefer the few hats I own be distinct.

I have a few hats in Caribou and more in silverbelly. Caribou is much darker.

And you meant you’re not a hat collector...yet.

 

[Just Daniel]

Alan,

I can’t pretend to know everything about trademarks, but I think my explanation was pretty close. For more information, the wiki on Trademarks is pretty complete. The second article on distinctiveness may clear up more issues.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark_distinctiveness

Here is the attorney named on the Open Road trademark application. He may be able to answer the question about how he chose the 1920 date.

https://www.kilpatricktownsend.com/en/People/L/LiebersteinMarcA

All the best,
Daniel

I don't want to belabor this, but I think time traveling between 1930s hat history and the modern era - speaking of a 1950 Stetson Open Road in the same breath as a 2020 Stetson Open Road - is confusing and leads to incorrect information and assumptions. This was handled well in the Stratoliner topics by making two separate threads - one for vintage and one for modern.

It is absolutely not safe to assume that the current owners of the Stetson brand have or had any evidence of an Open Road dating back to 1920. Had they access to an advertisement, trade invoice or sample photograph they would have been able to assign a date other that 00-00-1920. I have not seen any evidence of an Open Road introduction prior to 1937 - if anyone else has, please correct me. More likely the lawyer talked with the client and picked a time out of thin air that seemed appropriate. Given that the brand owner also owned the rights to all of the other competing brands of the era, it was unlikely that a complaint would be filed during the publication for opposition period.

I am not an attorney (my Mom would have liked if I were) but I do own and have assisted in the filing of several trademarks. From my understanding I think registering the trademark protected Stetson's business use of the name "Open Road" in connection with the listed products. The logotype is submitted to establish the identity, but had HCA or other brands sold a hat with the same style and dimensions and called it an Open Road they would have been subject to trademark infringement regardless of the typeface used on the sweatband and in advertisements. Virtually all competing companies had identical hats but avoided the use of the name "Open Road" as evidenced here:

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/the-other-open-roads.36972/

I don't own one, but I assume the block letters in the modern trademark filing is what appears inside the contemporary Stetson Open Road. If they decide to revive an early Stetson imprint to use in connection with these hats I expect their trademark rights to the name Open Road as used in connection with headwear would be in force notwithstanding.

 

[Royce Bloom]

Yeah I know the difference between caribou and silverbelly. I was wondering about the difference between natural and silverbelly. I’m no aficionado but I’m also not a complete moron. Haha.

I have a few hats in Caribou and more in silverbelly. Caribou is much darker.

And you meant you’re not a hat collector...yet.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Yeah I know the difference between caribou and silverbelly. I was wondering about the difference between natural and silverbelly. I’m no aficionado but I’m also not a complete moron. Haha.

Of the three colors Natural is my favorite. It’s also substantially different in color than Silverbelly. Wether it’s different enough is a decision only you can make. I wear my natural felts more than any other color and I have yet another custom in that color on order. For me, I find natural pairs better with what I wear and is more versatile than silverbelly, silvermist, silversand, bone, and the other light colored felts. That’s saying a lot too as I think silverbelly, the runner up, is a very versatile color and easy to wear as well. YMMV.

 

[Royce Bloom]

I really appreciate your insights because I know you have a formidable collection. If you have any pics of Stetson’s natural felt, I’d love to see them. For some reason it’s a hue I never see posted around here.

Of the three colors Natural is my favorite. It’s also substantially different in color than Silverbelly. Wether it’s different enough is a decision only you can make. I wear my natural felts more than any other color and I have yet another custom in that color on order. For me, I find natural pairs better with what I wear and is more versatile than silverbelly, silvermist, silversand, bone, and the other light colored felts. That’s saying a lot too as I think silverbelly, the runner up, is a very versatile color and easy to wear as well. YMMV.

 

[Frunobulax]

I really appreciate your insights because I know you have a formidable collection. If you have any pics of Stetson’s natural felt, I’d love to see them. For some reason it’s a hue I never see posted around here.

I own a Stetson Racine in Natural. The following isn't my hat, but the color representation in the photos is spot-on IMHO.

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/stetson-racine.96149/

 

[Frunobulax]

Received yesterday. Excellent Quality Canadian-made Stetson Open Road.

Super felt. Substantial, and with a soft hand. Nicer than my Stetson 25 OR, byt comparable. This one was easy to play with dry, but I steamed it up to open crown and brushed it out for a "most excellent result. 5 1/2" crown and 2 7/8" brim. Also note from the OC shot, this thing has quite a bit more flange than most ORs I've seen.

 

[Hurricane Jack]

Also note from the OC shot, this thing has quite a bit more flange than most ORs I've seen.

Every once in a while one will show up that has a deeper flange than normal. On those I always look at the brim break & the block. I have a Twenty-five like that. Do you think there is a difference in the blocking? Hard to tell from just one OC pic taken full side on. The brim looks great the way you've ironed it out. A most excellent Excellent!

 

[Bamaboots]

Received yesterday. Excellent Quality Canadian-made Stetson Open Road.

Super felt. Substantial, and with a soft hand. Nicer than my Stetson 25 OR, byt comparable. This one was easy to play with dry, but I steamed it up to open crown and brushed it out for a "most excellent result. 5 1/2" crown and 2 7/8" brim. Also note from the OC shot, this thing has quite a bit more flange than most ORs I've seen.

View attachment 272511 View attachment 272510 View attachment 272505 View attachment 272514 View attachment 272512 View attachment 272504 View attachment 272513

Great hat, Jim. I’ve only the experience with my one Canadian Stetson but it’s a fine one. I wish we knew more about them. A relatively short run up there.

And what HJ said. I’ve one or two with a similar flange. Great dimensions on that one, BTW.

 

[Frunobulax]

Every once in a while one will show up that has a deeper flange than normal. On those I always look at the brim break & the block. I have a Twenty-five like that. Do you think there is a difference in the blocking? Hard to tell from just one OC pic taken full side on. The brim looks great the way you've ironed it out. A most excellent Excellent!

Thanks, Jack.

This one doesn't show a block number. I'll have to pop it back out and compare it with another one. I didn't iron the brim at all. Just worked out a little ghost creasing on the crown.

Great hat, Jim. I’ve only the experience with my one Canadian Stetson but it’s a fine one. I wish we knew more about them. A relatively short run up there.

And what HJ said. I’ve one or two with a similar flange. Great dimensions on that one, BTW.

Thanks, Greg.

 

[Hurricane Jack]

This one doesn't show a block number. I'll have to pop it back out and compare it with another one. I didn't iron the brim at all.

Was just curious what you thought about the blocking. I knew it didn't have a block # on tag. No need to push it back to open.

I like the width of the brim. Amazing how the extra 1/8 adds to make it look. That's probably why I like the 3x6 so much.

 

[BobHufford]

Received yesterday. Excellent Quality Canadian-made Stetson Open Road.