The Lost Art of Manliness

[reetpleat]

Interestingly, my role model for a real man I would aspire to be is the home inspector i work with. We have become good friends. he has remodelled and rebuilt houses, drives a truck for a living now, keeps some goats for fun, bought a small bull dozer and rides around on it for fun, grew up in rural Washington, owns several guns, and has a very strong sense of self, and personal authority. when he talks, people pay attention and he is not afraid to speak his mind. But, he also dresses well, has a great creative side for design and such,is quite comfortable talking about his feelings and such more feminine things, and is gay. Very cool guy.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Proper thinking me thinks. What kind of professions are you recommending?

None yet. She's only a toddler. However, I've already picked out a Twae Kwon Do school for her.

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[Paisley]

Of course, I'm a cynic. I can't trust anyone I can't question. Paisley has served in the military, I know, so she has been in a world where reality is not something you take apart to see how it ticks. She's presumably learned that sometimes you have to trust people you can't question, and that force (even if it's just force of personality) sometimes is the answer.

In the military, you are to respect the rank, not necessarily the person, and I wouldn't give you ten cents for some of the NCOs I worked with. It wasn't a good fit for me. I was too independent and vowed to never, ever get stuck in another situation I couldn't get out of. I was so nervous about signing a one-year contract at the taekwondo school that Master Lee let me have a three-day trial.

I agree it's good to observe people for a long while before placing your complete trust in them. But, Fletch, is it possible that your instincts, and people in general, are better than you give them credit for?

 

[Martinis at 8]

None yet. She's only a toddler. However, I've already picked out a Twae Kwon Do school for her.

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Since you are out there in L.A., you might want to consider Kuk Sool Won, it's a little more diversified than TKD. My whole family has done Kuk Sool, including my wife. I am a 1st Dan, and my son (now grown and gone) is a 2nd Dan. My son started when he was an 8-yr old. He's now an army officer.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

I'll definitely look into it! Thanks very much! :eusa_clap

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[Edward]

I am giggling that half of you think its related to appearance...half of you don't....and half of you are arguing for a more manly man...and half are arguing for more sensitivity..


no wonder why people write books....you are all confused.

lol You're onto something there, maybe.... course, I consider myself the worst of the lot: everything that I am convinced women run to (the strong dominant- ba***rd-type) - and I have seen this happen in reality far too often to discount - is the exact opposite of everything it means to me to be a real man, and of everything I aspire to be. Needless to say, I live alone, with cats, and crash and burn with just about every woman I've approached in living memory. lol But then if being a grunting, performing monkey-boy is what women really want, who can be bothered with that? not me. (To be fair, I've had more than my fair share of offers over the past couple of years, but none of them were ones I'd take seriously - too outright weird, too young, and a bit too married about covers most of them.)

Oddly enough, necklaces and rings and bracelets et grat response too. WOmen love to touch, comment on and play with them. May seem rather unmasculine to many, but think Johnny Depp. Sexiest man in the world, so I last heard. Johnny Depp sems to be the perfect blend of very masculine and feminine energies, and the ladies eat it up.

Surely the point is that he is confident in himself and his own identity, without slavishly conforming to gender stereotypes of whatever generation? I've never cared for this concept of "masculine side" / "feminine side" - sure, men and women will always be different, but to seek to ascribe a gender to individual personality traits always seemed to me to be a wholly artificial construct, and more than a little limiting.

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I am teaching my daughter to be self-sovereign. That way, she can find security in herself, rather than seek and depend on a partner to provide it.

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Good for you. Nothing less attractive than a needy woman who is interested only in my gender and utility rather than me as an individual. I'm sure I can't be alone in that line of thinking. Ultimately, it would be my firm belief that with such guidance she'll grow up much more self-reliant and as a direct result thereof much wiser about relationship choices than those who settle for much less than they deserve because they "need a man around".

 

[Tomasso]

it would be my firm belief that with such guidance she'll grow up much more self-reliant and as a direct result thereof much wiser about relationship choices than those who settle for much less than they deserve because they "need a man around"

Or.......she'll be a lesbian.

NTTAWWT

 

[The Lonely Navigator]

Originally Posted by reetpleat

Now, I know I said I was all for men getting in touch with their feminine side, and I know I said I wouldn't be critical about anyone's choices around that. And I don't think we should draw our sense of our own masculinity from external sources such as women.

But I gotta draw the line somewhere.

I agree as well.

At the same time - one shouldn't be considered "less of a man" if they don't do or have certain things - I do not have a truck, let alone a car (I live right in town and carpool ...plus I wouldn't be able to afford it - therefore I know my limits and try to work with them).

I do not hunt or own guns - but do not mind hunters as they help contribute to wildlife management both by hunting and through funds. I have no problems with guns - I just don't care for them, but take an interest in historical guns.

Some, I suppose would consider me a sort of wussy...but it was not easy living with what I had and not being prescribed painkillers. I spent far too much time - for whatever the reason - not having been prescribed them than I should have despite having gone to the hospital.

I don't drink beer because I prefer wine and...heaven forbid...mixed drinks. Growing up with alcoholic abusive parental figures - I personally tend to be wary of alcohol as people can react differently when drinking it. I keep none at home, but don't mind responsible social drinking.

I am not physically strong, for obvious reasons, but what is one to expect from one living with CFS?

[huh]

My bottom line with this is that - are you going to tell a young man - or any male - who is in the hospital weakned from any disease that he is 'less of a man' because he doesn't have his muscular strength? Are you going to tell a soldier is crying because he lost his comrade in combat, that he is less of a man because he is in touch with his emotions and isn't afraid to express them?

 

[Paisley]

lol You're onto something there, maybe.... course, I consider myself the worst of the lot: everything that I am convinced women run to (the strong dominant- ba***rd-type) - and I have seen this happen in reality far too often to discount - is the exact opposite of everything it means to me to be a real man, and of everything I aspire to be.

Good point--my idea of manliness, for what it's worth, has nothing to do with attracting women like flies. It's kind of funny, though, when the type you describe acts like he's hot stuff around women who can read him like a bad novel.

 

[The Lonely Navigator]

I'd have to agree with Edward's statement above.

From what I've seen - showy displays of aggression, and on the other end - like the 'poser' types that were mentioned - simply say to me one thing - Insecure.

 

[Big Baby Macoy]

"Generation X and Y is a generation of Lost Boys. We live in a Never-Never-Land where boys stay boys and never become men. More and more males today are putting off college, family, and adult responsibilities in order to play video games and do keg stands. The Art of Manliness is dedicated to helping men uncover what manliness means in the 21st century. What skills and knowledge should a 21st century man acquire? What traits should they develop? This book will have the answers. "....This is a book, just a simple self help book like the thousands that have come before it. My father was an orphan and a young parent having me when he was only 18. He married my teenage mother and two years later, our family was rewarded with a divorce and a I got a new brother. My father taught me from an extremely early age (much younger then was healthy). I understood, we had to work together to make it work with just the three of us when my mother abandoned the family. Lucky enough I had an amazing father, great uncles, loyal friends and a rough but educational neighborhood home in the Dirty Dot. I joined the U.S. army directly after High School, not because I had to but because I felt like to was my duty and my wish. I served the first ten years of my adult life in the legendary 7th Calvary, 1st Brigade Combat Team, "Ironhorse". I had the pleasure to serve along side many of these so called "generation of Lost Boys" and I am proud to say that we have nothing to worry about this generation. These young men have grown into responsible, independent, brave with a bright future in front of them. No, I am not a conservative war hawk. Nor, am I trying to suggest that military service is the only answer. Look at the Obama campaign fueled by the excitement and dedication of a young generation who felt empowered. Also
these lazy Gen X'r are leading the charge to help purify this planet and help us all live a greener life. A book can't teach you how to be a man, just a bit of guidance and a lot of hard work. But, hey I will almost anything once.....

 

[Dr Doran]

lol You're onto something there, maybe.... course, I consider myself the worst of the lot: everything that I am convinced women run to (the strong dominant- ba***rd-type) - and I have seen this happen in reality far too often to discount - is the exact opposite of everything it means to me to be a real man, and of everything I aspire to be. Needless to say, I live alone, with cats, and crash and burn with just about every woman I've approached in living memory. lol But then if being a grunting, performing monkey-boy is what women really want, who can be bothered with that? not me.

Surely there is a vast difference between being a "grunting, performing monkey-boy" or "ba***rd" and a moderately dominant and strong type.

And the latter, in my experience, is what many, many women seem to appreciate.

 

[Dr Doran]

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I am teaching my daughter to be self-sovereign. That way, she can find security in herself, rather than seek and depend on a partner to provide it.

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Very well. My daughter as well. She is 3 now. But ... here are the questions.

1.) What sort of son-in-law would you prefer to have? I mean, were you to have your choice?

2.) Would it be acceptable for her to be quite independent, yet to be ATTRACTED to a more "manly" type than the Emo-punk crowd?

We are getting down to the issues here, and I'm pleased that everyone is debating so much, and that there seems to be a variety of opinions offered (although I am displeased that some have dropped out). Here is one assertion I wish to make:

To parody an assertive, somewhat traditionally masculine man as an ape is just as bad as parodying a man who possesses none of these attributes as a wimpy little useless sissy boy.

I have NEVER gone out with a woman who did not, on certain occasions, wish the males that they dated to exhibit leadership. Leadership which would be defined as masculine by most people.

Much of my life I have lived in horrible neighborhoods. Women visited me in those neighborhoods. If I was not visibly, obviously able to clearly, definitively kick the ____ out of anyone that would bother me or people with me, I would have been finished in those neighborhoods. And guess what? the women who visited me appreciated that.

At the moment, I am teaching at San Quentin Prison. And this has made me aware of the fact that there are entire populations of human beings to whom some degree of martial ability is extremely important. Why? Because it keeps them alive and respected. And the aforementioned goal of being attractive to women which reetpleat mentioned requires remaining alive and having at least a little respect from other males.

The history of the human species is one of constant intermale conflict. Many early skeletons found by archaeologists have breaks that conform only to violence (see L. Keeley's book War Before Civilization). Yes, we would all like this to not happen, and to not have happened. Yet since conflict does happen, it is not bizarre or evil for me when I think that females may prefer males who have some fighting chance of ending up on the winning end of such conflict. I suspect this is an evolved preference.

Very, very comfortable technologically advanced societies have the luxury of disdaining martial accomplishments. For their own sake, I hope these men stay in extremely safe parts of the world, and in extremely safe neighborhoods ...

 

[Martinis at 8]

...
1.) What sort of son-in-law would you prefer to have? I mean, were you to have your choice?

Self-reliant, self-sovereign.

2.) Would it be acceptable for her to be quite independent, yet to be ATTRACTED to a more "manly" type than the Emo-punk crowd?

I don't know what Emo-punk is. Yes, she should be independent, able to stand on her two feet, and professionally as well. Too many mothers get stranded when a husband dies or abandons, if they do not have means of sustaining an income after the event.

To parody an assertive, somewhat traditionally masculine man as an ape is just as bad as parodying a man who possesses none of these attributes as a wimpy little useless sissy boy.

True.

I have NEVER gone out with a woman who did not, on certain occasions, wish the males that they dated to exhibit leadership. Leadership which would be defined as masculine by most people.

True, but it's not all about pleasing women.

Much of my life I have lived in horrible neighborhoods. Women visited me in those neighborhoods. If I was not visibly, obviously able to clearly, definitively kick the ____ out of anyone that would bother me or people with me, I would have been finished in those neighborhoods. And guess what? the women who visited me appreciated that.

That's a windfall for the women, more for your own survival, having been in similar myself.

The history of the human species is one of constant intermale conflict.

It will continue to be so.

Yet since conflict does happen, it is not bizarre or evil for me when I think that females may prefer males who have some fighting chance of ending up on the winning end of such conflict. I suspect this is an evolved preference.

Well said.

Very, very comfortable technologically advanced societies have the luxury of disdaining martial accomplishments. For their own sake, I hope these men stay in extremely safe parts of the world, and in extremely safe neighborhoods ...

Well said. There are delusions in these safe societies. They need to take a walk in Los Angeles, like around Washington & Figueroa.

 

[Dr Doran]

Or Oakland.

 

[Martinis at 8]

Or Oakland.

Sure! Come on down from Piedmont I always say!

 

[Foofoogal]

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/116889/why_women_love_the_alpha_male.html

read somewhere recently that statistically women almost all prefer alpha male.
A strong man does not have to be a jerk. He just knows who he is. If a man has to state he is a strong man generally he is not an alpha male.
Does not mean also he is not a good father or loving to his wife. He protects his own.

 

[Dr Doran]

read somewhere recently that statistically women almost all prefer alpha male.

The best explanation of this is attained by considering that before monogamy was socially imposed on the Western world (a statistically unusual phenomenon) the norm seems to have been that males varied greatly in reproductive success. This means that some men had a lot of offspring, some none. And in most societies, for most of human evolution, polygyny was the norm. Meaning: some men got ahold of a lot of resources, power, and mating partners. Some got nothing. It has always been a contest. The institution of monogamy, which occurred in Greek and Roman society, was statistically very, very unusual. Only the fact that we have made it normal in our society has blinded us to the fact that it is so statistically abnormal. In the state of human societies before socially imposed universal monogamy, high-status males enjoyed a great deal of mating opportunities and low-status males received little or nothing (except what they attained by force.) This perspective makes us see that rape is the domain of low status males, not high status males -- which is precisely what crime reports reveal. Unless "rape" is defined extremely broadly as it was in the 1990s. The evidence for the fact that huge variation occurred in the reproductive success of males, but not so much in females (who, historically, have always been able to breed if they wished) is that chromosomally, all humans today descend from a large number of females but a much smaller number of males. Only a small number of males throughout human history, in the long view, have reproduced,compared to females.

A strong man does not have to be a jerk. He just knows who he is. If a man has to state he is a strong man generally he is not an alpha male.
Does not mean also he is not a good father or loving to his wife. He protects his own.

This is precisely what I believe. And I have been very close to a lot of women. And I have had heart-to-heart talks with them ... and I believe that they feel this way, largely. I recognize that a countervalent trend has existed since about 1970. It is not only a countervalent trend in opinion, but it is also a countervalent trend in reproductive customs. We will see how prevalent this trend will remain .... if it ever has been "prevalent."

 

[Feraud]

I am giggling that half of you think its related to appearance...half of you don't....and half of you are arguing for a more manly man...and half are arguing for more sensitivity..


no wonder why people write books....you are all confused.

The varied replies to the topic makes me think the Art of Manliness is doing just fine.

 

[jamespowers]

I am not quite sure if I would call Greek and Roman societies of old monogamous. They might have been married for political and consolidation of power and wealth reasons. However, married usually had nothing to do with the type of monogamy we had 60 years ago.
I do agree with your other points though. Man will always have to be the protector---like it or not.
That being said, I am not going into Oakland without a copious amount of mechanical backup.