The Lost Art of Manliness

[J. Musler]

...A strong man does not have to be a jerk. He just knows who he is. If a man has to state he is a strong man generally he is not an alpha male...

I love that you say that. I have always likened it to the yippy dog syndrome. The big dog that can kill you in an instant can be the sweetest. It's the little dog that barks. The little yippy dog must prove his worth, much like the weak male. I also think this applies for general "coolness". If you have to say you are cool, you aren't.

 

[Widebrim]

Or.......she'll be a lesbian.

NTTAWWT

Off topic, but...Interesting how people today will often make a comment or remark about a "controversial" topic, but will then include a Seinfeld-like reference/appeal to tolerance ("TTAWWT"). If that is what one really believes (and I'm not saying that Tomasso doesn't), then so be it, but I would none-the-less find it refreshing for someone to feel free enough to make a reference to, or express an opinion about a "politically/morally-charged" subject without qualifying it.

 

[Miss Neecerie]

Well said. There are delusions in these safe societies. They need to take a walk in Los Angeles, like around Washington & Figueroa.

Oh dear.....I am now left wondering what it says about me that I lived right there for a few years....and did not think it a particularly rough neighbourhood....lol

Then again...I also sojourn into Boyle Heights and East LA on a fairly regular basis without it inspiring terror.


D...who obviously thus lacks a sense of self preservation...but I do own some really nice steel toed boots.....

 

[Hamilton_Honey]

Oh dear.....I am now left wondering what it says about me that I lived right there for a few years....and did not think it a particularly rough neighbourhood....lol

Then again...I also sojourn into Boyle Heights and East LA on a fairly regular basis without it inspiring terror.


D...who obviously thus lacks a sense of self preservation...but I do own some really nice steel toed boots.....

I also have a nice pair of steel toes...hmmm, does that make me manly? Or just self reliant

 

[Talbot]

I read all the way to here....

And debated throwing in my own 2 cents.

Its always interesting to see how much discussion about manliness focuses on women. I have to agree with Carlisle, manliness is not about misogyny. Not just because misogyny is wrong, but the frame of reference is external.

To me, manliness (and I suppose womenliness too) is an internal thing. Understanding who you are, your context and how you interact. Having your act together.

You could sip gasoline and smoke highway flares, or wear a tutu and makeup, that stuff's just not relevant.

 

[reetpleat]

I am not quite sure if I would call Greek and Roman societies of old monogamous. They might have been married for political and consolidation of power and wealth reasons. However, married usually had nothing to do with the type of monogamy we had 60 years ago.
I do agree with your other points though. Man will always have to be the protector---like it or not.
That being said, I am not going into Oakland without a copious amount of mechanical backup.

I think only a certain percentage of women care much about physical prowess. I do believe most women are attracted to men with strong sense of personal authority, as (I call it. This is the strength of knowing who you are, what you are about, and being able to make decisions and take care of what needs to be taken care of.

WhileI wrestled in high school, amd muscular, and could probably take care of myself okay, I do not think I come off as any kind of tough guy. And i think few if any of the women I have been with gave a second thought to my ability to physically protect them. And i seem to do just fine.

I think women are much more attracted to men who are strong inn personality, are interesting, fun, and can bring excitement to their lives.

As for alpha or beta males, i suppose it is a matter of defiinition and attraction.

It is hard to say that guys is ann alpha male, that guy is not. And while many women may initially be attracted to alpha traits, if you can actually define them, they may easily end up wiht a guy tht they like for different reasons, such as his nurturing sensitive side.

 

[reetpleat]

Oh dear.....I am now left wondering what it says about me that I lived right there for a few years....and did not think it a particularly rough neighbourhood....lol

Then again...I also sojourn into Boyle Heights and East LA on a fairly regular basis without it inspiring terror.


D...who obviously thus lacks a sense of self preservation...but I do own some really nice steel toed boots.....

I think some people tend to think of certian areas as much rougher than other people do. I do think their are some parts of the world that are dangerous, but not near as dangerous or near as many of them as some men here seem to think. But perhaps it is me that is naive.

Pretty much a matter of world view.

 

[Martinis at 8]

Oh dear.....I am now left wondering what it says about me that I lived right there for a few years....and did not think it a particularly rough neighbourhood....lol

Then again...I also sojourn into Boyle Heights and East LA on a fairly regular basis without it inspiring terror.


D...who obviously thus lacks a sense of self preservation...but I do own some really nice steel toed boots.....

Actually it's not that bad, though I have seen posts here at FL describing the area as "unlivable". The frame of reference is different if you grow up there.

There are however, some nice things about the area from a historical perspective like the Stimson mansion, the Doheny mansion, and some of the other stately old residences and buildings of "West Adams". I attended John Adams Jr. High on 30th and Hope. "Walkiing the Tunnel" there was always an experience! lol The area was Clanton 14th St. territory when I lived there, and from my last visit just a year or so ago, still seems to be.

 

[Martinis at 8]

I think some people tend to think of certian areas as much rougher than other people do. I do think their are some parts of the world that are dangerous, but not near as dangerous or near as many of them as some men here seem to think. But perhaps it is me that is naive.

Pretty much a matter of world view.

I think you are on target. You should hear the stuff I get told about riding down into Mexico. I am certain you have heard the same. Not sure which place I would regard as most dangerous. Maybe Lagos, Nigeria, but I have never had any incidents there happen to me and have walked around freely on island Lagos. As for mainland Lagos, I have not been in that part of the city.

 

[Fletch]

The best explanation of this is attained by considering that before monogamy was socially imposed on the Western world (a statistically unusual phenomenon) the norm seems to have been that males varied greatly in reproductive success. This means that some men had a lot of offspring, some none. And in most societies, for most of human evolution, polygyny was the norm. Meaning: some men got ahold of a lot of resources, power, and mating partners. Some got nothing. It has always been a contest. [...] chromosomally, all humans today descend from a large number of females but a much smaller number of males. Only a small number of males throughout human history, in the long view, have reproduced,compared to females.
[...]
I recognize that a countervalent trend has existed since about 1970. It is not only a countervalent trend in opinion, but it is also a countervalent trend in reproductive customs. We will see how prevalent this trend will remain .... if it ever has been "prevalent."

Gee, I never figured you for a gender essentialist.

Do you think that the relative sissification of masculinity during the depression years, brought on by a widespread lack of provider prowess and traditional male self-confidence, accounted in part for the falling birthrate?

 

[reetpleat]

I think you are on target. You should hear the stuff I get told about riding down into Mexico. I am certain you have heard the same. Not sure which place I would regard as most dangerous. Maybe Lagos, Nigeria, but I have never had any incidents there happen to me and have walked around freely on island Lagos. As for mainland Lagos, I have not been in that part of the city.

Yes, the worst I hear is from my Mexican relatives in MExico City. To hear them tell it, it is nothing but thieves, pick pockets, muggers mother rapists, father rapists and other n'er do wells.

 

[Edward]

Surely there is a vast difference between being a "grunting, performing monkey-boy" or "ba***rd" and a moderately dominant and strong type.

And the latter, in my experience, is what many, many women seem to appreciate.

True, true.... I'm rather too cynical, I know. There is of course a distinct difference, and yes, the latter is what many - though not all - women go for. Alas, it seems, all too many of them in my experience don't quite see the differnece between the two. [huh]

Very, very comfortable technologically advanced societies have the luxury of disdaining martial accomplishments. For their own sake, I hope these men stay in extremely safe parts of the world, and in extremely safe neighborhoods ...

Well, yes, everyone needs to be able to defend themselves adequately - even if just by using common sense about which areas / places they will enter into after dark, as it were. And "dangerous areas" are always a subjective thing.... I know there are people out there who even now view Belfast as effectively twinned with the Gaza Strip.... I've never regarded it as a dangerous place, but then I know where's worth avoiding there, where's fine, and have a fair handle on the cultural situation and so know how to blend in.... etc.... I think the same goes for anywhere. That said, with the exercise of a little common sense, I've felt as safe late at night in Beijing as anywhere else I've been, and that's probably about as "alien" a place as I've ever experienced coming from my own, Western frame of reference. Fortunately I've never had to defend myself from an attacker - and to be honest, manly, unmanly or whatever I'd rather hand over a wallet than risk getting stabbed or shot (in particular, if a weapon is being openly branded). Some things just aren't worth your life... same as if someone breaks into my home. Seriously, it's only a TV, I'm not going to kill or be killed over something as ultimately insigificant as that. The bodily safety of someone I might be with at the time, now that's a whole different matter.... and I'm pretty certain that if ever I was unfortunate enough to be in such a situation I could do a lot of damage in a short space of time, if cornered. There's a reason Sun Tzu counselled always leaving your enemy an escape route as an alternative to fighting you.

The issues above about pre-monogamous civilisations are interesting. No idea where I'd fit in there, though myself.... I have absolutely zero drive to procreate in the specific sense of producing children.... not that that rules out interest in a certain side to the production process, though! lol

 

[Fletch]

I still think you in jolly olde have slightly less stringent roles in this regard than do we sons of the frontier.

The way Doran puts it, the most important thing nowadays is that you have to look the role. You need a certain build, a certain bearing, and a certain air.

This presents problems for those of us who can't, or won't, look or act that way. One reason I'm on the FL in the first place is that I can't and won't.

How much Henry Rollins can YOU bring?​

 

[Paisley]

He just looks scary. And grumpy.

 

[Widebrim]

I can assure you that if you visit any major city in the country, women actually appreciate it and respond positively to it. These days I hang out with a group of guys dedicateto being more successful with women. ALong with learning how to approach and talk better, and be more interesting and fun, we focus on looking good. The idea is that women notice and appreciate it. But there is also something masculine about aguy who attends to details, cares about his appearance, and shines his shoes. Perhaps it is a nice balance between masculine and feminine.

In aroom full of guys, the well dressed well groomed guy wil stand out and hae an edge. But maybe it does not work so well in the country.

Well said, and true...

 

[Widebrim]

Oh dear.....I am now left wondering what it says about me that I lived right there for a few years....and did not think it a particularly rough neighbourhood....lol

Then again...I also sojourn into Boyle Heights and East LA on a fairly regular basis without it inspiring terror.

Like you and I discussed when CarlisleBlues visited, many people have the wrong impression of the "Eastside." Sure, to the uninitiated, it can look a bit scary (just like South-Central), but the way you react to any surroundings is a major key (even if you are not a member of the local race/ ethnic group). Yet, I would not suggest a midnight "sojourn" to Boyle Street, Lou Costello Park, or Whittier Blvd, but then I could say that about most everywhere else on the planet...

 

[Fletch]

He just looks scary. And grumpy.

Well, won't that scare off the predators? Especially if you're all in black and built like a gym rat?

 

[Widebrim]

Yes, the worst I hear is from my Mexican relatives in MExico City. To hear them tell it, it is nothing but thieves, pick pockets, muggers mother rapists, father rapists and other n'er do wells.

I spent a week in el Distrito Federal some years ago, and vividly recall the police and soldiers on patrol with M-16s...However, the people whom I encountered and spoke with seemed far removed from the above catagories. On the outside, at least, Mexico City is a fairly safe, albeit frenetic city...

 

[LizzieMaine]

He just looks scary. And grumpy.

Actually, for such a he-man, he has an awfully weak chin. Sort of like Andy Gump on steroids.

 

[Fletch]

Actually, for such a he-man, he has an awfully weak chin. Sort of like Andy Gump on steroids.

Contemporary esthetics will overlook that if there's a wide, lantern jaw and a neck at least as wide as the jaw.

The ultimate is to look like an industrially shaped human: one who embodies discipline and control, and appears able to discipline and control others.

If you can pull that off, you can get away with doing or saying just about anything.