The Lost Art of Manliness

[Foofoogal]

http://juicyplanet.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/heston.jpg
I prefer this he man. lol

Question: who is Chuck Norris?

Chuck is not my cup of tea. lol

 

[get_atomized]

I believe it was a humourous reference to a tired old stereotype, to whit that a young lady raised to not feel dependent on a man is "in danger" of turning out to be "one of those".

Someone shoulda told my parents before it was too late

 

[BellyTank]

Heston is not my cup of Chuck.

Chuck Norris ate Charlton Heston and sold the bones on eBay.


B
T

 

[Lone_Ranger]

I haven't actually looked at too many posts after so i'll respond to those in turn but let's also remember that a few centuries ago the way the gentleman acted would today seem absolutely ridiculous (and to some degree rightly so) with powdered wigs and frills and fancy breeches, affecting lisps (think Archibald Cunningham from Rob Roy). But even then there was an underlying masculinity and sense of honor and such, all of which are tied to the whole idea of chivalry and the like, which goes back to prehistory, even and can be found in every culture and age without exception. This is true even in the few matriarchal societies that have existed.

Never wavering on principles even when one has nothing to gain materially from doing so.

Something like this, Maguire?

The 10 Rules of Chivalry.

1. Follow the dictates of moral conscience.

2. Be willing to defend your values.

3. Have respect and pity for the weak and steadfastness in defending them.

4. Love your country.

5. Refuse to retreat before the enemy.

6. Wage unceasing and merciless war against all that is evil.

7. Obey the orders of those appointed above you, as long as those orders do not conflict with what you know to be just.

8. Show loyalty to truth and to your pledged word.

9. Be generous and giving of ones self.

10. Be champion of the right and good at all times, and at all times oppose the forces of evil.


​

The Cowboy Code, Code of the Lone Ranger, Code of the West, the Boy Scout Code. If you look, you can see that they have their root in the Old Code of Chivalry.

http://www.elvaquero.com/The_Cowboy_Code.htm

There is a fantastic essay by Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman, called "Of Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs," but if I post it here the thread will rapidly descend into a political argument. It sort of already has started in that direction. I don't want to push it over the edge.

Feel free to PM, and can send you a link.

 

[Maguire]

Those rules sort of reflect it in a watered down way but in today's day and age any sort of chivalry is to be commended, for those sticking to it risk being Don Quixotes.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

The twelve chivalric virtues (14th Century)

* Faith
* Charity
* Justice
* Sagacity
* Prudence
* Temperance
* Resolution
* Truth
* Liberality
* Diligence
* Hope
* Valor

as defined by the Duke of Burgundy for the Order of the Golden Fleece.



I see examples of this every day. All I have to do is look around!!.....

 

[Geesie]

compare to the Seven Heavenly Virtues:

Chastity
Temperance
Charity
Diligence
Patience
Kindness
Humility

Or the 4 Cardinal + 3 Theological Virtues:

Prudence
Justice
Temperance
Fortitude
Faith
Hope
Charity

 

[GallatinHatMan]

A Code of Chivalry
Modern, based on the "Old Code"
Brian R. Price
April, 1997


Prowess: To seek excellence in all endeavors expected of a knight, martial and otherwise, seeking strength to be used in the service of justice, rather than in personal aggrandizement.

Justice: Seek always the path of 'right', unencumbered by bias or personal interest. Recognize that the sword of justice can be a terrible thing, so it must be tempered by humanity and mercy. If the 'right' you see rings agrees with others, and you seek it out without bending to the temptation for expediency, then you will earn renown beyond measure.

Loyalty: Be known for unwavering commitment to the people and ideals you choose to live by. There are many places where compromise is expected; loyalty is not amongst them.

Defense: The ideal knight was sworn by oath to defend his liege lord and those who depended upon him. Seek always to defend your nation, your family, and those to whom you believe worthy of loyalty.

Courage: Being a knight often means choosing the more difficult path, the personally expensive one. Be prepared to make personal sacrifices in service of the precepts and people you value. At the same time, a knight should seek wisdom to see that stupidity and courage are cousins. Courage also means taking the side of truth in all matters, rather than seeking the expedient lie. Seek the truth whenever possible, but remember to temper justice with mercy, or the pure truth can bring grief.

Faith: A knight must have faith in his beliefs, for faith roots him and gives hope against the despair that human failings create.

Humility: Value first the contributions of others; do not boast of your own accomplishments, let others do this for you. Tell the deeds of others before your own, according them the renown rightfully earned through virtuous deeds. In this way the office of knighthood is well done and glorified, helping not only the gentle spoken of but also all who call themselves knights.

Largesse: Be generous in so far as your resources allow; largesse used in this way counters gluttony. It also makes the path of mercy easier to discern when a difficult decision of justice is required.

Nobility: Seek great stature of character by holding to the virtues and duties of a knight, realizing that though the ideals cannot be reached, the quality of striving towards them ennobles the spirit, growing the character from dust towards the heavens. Nobility also has the tendency to influence others, offering a compelling example of what can be done in the service of rightness.

Franchise: Seek to emulate everything I have spoken of as sincerely as possible, not for the reason of personal gain but because it is right. Do not restrict your exploration to a small world, but seek to infuse every aspect of your life with these qualities. Should you succeed in even a tiny measure then you will be well remembered for your quality and virtue.

http://www.chronique.com/Library/Chivalry/code.htm#intro

 

[Big Baby Macoy]

Makes me question my own opinion of "Manliness"

I am extremely new to the Fedora Lounge, and this thread truly interested me. I went though and read all 320+ comments and to be honest what my original idea of what "Manliness" meant changed the more I read and thought about many of the previous intelligent and vastly different definitions of what it other people consider "Manliness". I wish I experienced an epiphany but I was just left with more questions. (Which is not such a terrible thing.) The only thing I can add or wish to share is that I grew in tight knit Irish Catholic Neighbor in Boston and was taught a certain set of rules on what it means to be a "Man". Then after high school I spent six years in the military and witness another form of "Manliness". All I know for certain is that as long as I treat people with respect, honesty and a little empathy then I can be proud of myself. Thank you for starting this thread and even though it didn't answer any questions for me, it did cause me to evaluate my personal view of "Manliness"

 

[vintage68]

You're welcome. I think living the question is more interesting than arriving at absolutes. We're all different men living in different contexts.

Have you bought/taken a look at the book?

 

[Widebrim]

None of these are eaxtly manly in the eyes of many modern american men. of course, latin culture is interesting to me in thta there certainly is a macho sense, but it is not unusual for a Mexican man to recite 16th century poetry or sing a romantic or sorrowful ballad.

Good observation and point...

 

[get_atomized]

I found these two links and thought of the Fedora Lounge! (they might have already been posted elsewhere but I did not find them!)

"Manning Up" - http://www.philly.com/philly/phillywomen/20100407_Manning_up.html
""Retrosexuals": The latest lame macho catchphrase" - http://www.salon.com/life/gender/index.html?story=/mwt/broadsheet/2010/04/07/retrosexuals_silliness

Highly abrasive! [huh]

 

[Silver Dollar]

I wasn't originally going to respond to this but I just have to throw my hat in the ring so to speak. I've tried to read all of these posts but after about the 5th page, my head started to hurt. Besides, everything was being repeated over and over again. Terms were being thrown around until they were dented, bent and flattened. Unfortunately, I haven't read every post so if there's something I mention that was stated before, please forgive me.

In my old humble opinion, being a man and being manly is a matter of genetics. If you have and X and a Y chromosome, you are a man. If you have XX, you are not. Manliness can mean so many things and can encompass so mant subjects that I personally think it's the wrong term to use altogether. From what I gather, the majority of members have led me to believe that the correct term is "mensch" and it can apply to both men and women. It's a Yiddish word not so much meaning "man" but being a good person. If you look at the rules of chivalry and code of conduct or whatever you like to call it, it all boils down to being a mensch, i.e. one who shows respect to all, one who has a good sense of how to act around other people, one who has manners, one who strives to do the right thing, one who cherishes and always practices honesty, one who fights for justice for everyone, one who respects the rights of others, one who fights for those who can't fight for themselves, one who is fair, one who can be a good leader as well as a good follower when the situation demands, etc., etc., etc.
It has nothing to do with athleticism, skydiving, cigar smoking, wearing a hat, correctly wearing a suit, shaving with a straight razor in your helmet with cold water (something that I have done and have the scars to prove it) or any of that crap we're considering to be "manly". The term Mensch can be applied to women who exhibit the same characteristics. Does that mean that those women are overly masculine or being mannish? Hell no. It means they're being good people, moral people, people who can function well in society, people you'd love to be with and not want to avoid.

No I'm not done yet. If you're slow to anger, are you a wimp? If you sit there and keep your mouth shut in a situation when others think you need to scream your head off, are you a scaredy shrinking violet? If you refuse to do something that everyone else does because you don't think it's the right thing to do, are you a sissy? If you step aside and let someone else grab an advantage that a more ambitious and aggresive individual would jump at and walk over all the others to get, does that show you have no ambition and are not the man? The answer is a resounding HELL NO!! It's the sign of a mensch, a person with manners, with a sense of morality, a sense of fairness, and a great sense of style. The book really has no connection to genetics for me. It's about being a mensch.

These are the things that many in our society just don't have and what a number of you have been complaining about. The book shouldn't be the Lost Art of Manliness but should be called The Lost Art of Being a Mensch. Who cares whether or not I can wear a hat correctly, who cares whether or not I wear suits, who cares if I can't pick the right wine (I can't drink it anyway and neither can my wife), who cares if I'm chubby and love to wear an A2 jacket? You can play football, hockey, smoke expensive cigars, have so called "style". You can do all those "manly" things but still be a total jerk with no manners and no respect for yourself or others like many of the young men you speak about today. I'm not looking to be manly, I'm looking to be a mensch and that will net me more success in the long run than anything else.

 

[norton]

I have to agree with the previous post, and I also haven't read the whole thread, but his discription of a mensch is close to my idea of being a gentleman.
And its amazing how few gentlemen there are in the world.

When I was in college I had a number of friends who were foreign students. My best friend was a Pakistani from a wealthy family. We were not saints by any means, but we got along so well because we had the same definition of honor. Honor was much more important in his society than in ours. While we might have drank excessively, we acted honorably. Our society has lost the ideal of honor and it needs to be brought back. A real man, a gentleman, is an honorable man.

 

[Creeping Past]

Many women I know believe strongly that Thatcher set back the 'women's movement' by at least twenty years.

I wonder whether they've considered that they're projecting their idea of gender-specifics on to her.

Perhaps it was easier for some to relegate Thatcher to a zone of supposed mannishness rather than accept she was a powerful, effective, intelligent woman at a time when the 'women's movement' had a very different idea of how such a woman should act in public life.