The Lost Art of Manliness

[Miss Neecerie]

The most important thing that makes me a "man" is that I do my utmost to meet my responsibilities whether I am kissing a skinned knee or chopping down a tree.

Not to disagree with the overall premise that things have changed.....but

I could say that this exact same things...meeting responsibilities no matter what they include doing...makes me a woman.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

Not to disagree with the overall premise that things have changed.....but

I could say that this exact same things...meeting responsibilities no matter what they include doing...makes me a woman.

Of course you could but the title of this thread is about MANLINESS.............lol lol lol

You *GUYS* have your own thread that was moved to the Powder Room.....presumably to keep the men out............:eusa_doh: :eusa_doh: :eusa_doh:

 

[Miss Neecerie]

Of course you could but the title of this thread is about MANLINESS.............lol lol lol

You *GUYS* have your own thread that was moved to the Powder Room.....presumably to keep the men out............:eusa_doh: :eusa_doh: :eusa_doh:

I am just saying that defining it based on something like 'doing whatever it takes' is hardly a gender specific thing and rather a 'Decent and good human' qualification and thus is no closer to defining this 'lost art' then anything else we have seen discussed so far.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

^^^^
This thread had espoused differing value sets regarding what is a man, including the premise that a man who is nurturing is less than a man.........NOT

 

[Widebrim]

I am saying I accept people for who they are not their sex.

I would not mind these women protecting me:

The most famous female infantry soldier of the Civil War was Sarah Emma Edmonds ("Franklin Thompson") who served for two years in the 2nd Michigan Infantry as soldier, spy, and nurse. After the war when she applied for a pension, her former comrades confirmed her service and she was made the only known female member of the Grand Army of the Republic. She was in combat in several engagements.

The White Lily of Stailingrad Lydia Vladimirovna Litvyak, was a female fighter pilot in the Soviet Air Force during World War II. With 12 solo victories she is one of the world's only two female fighter aces, along with Katya Budanova.

I wouldn't mind the above-mentioned protecting me either, C., but you're citing the exception, not the rule. Come on, brother, you were in the Army, too...

 

[Widebrim]

Brute strength is the bottom line only in contests of brute strength.

I've heard lots of arguments that combat should be the measure of all men - if not in actual fact, at least by example. I'd like to hear yours.

No, combat should not be the measure of all men, although the least likely candidates will sometimes show their true mettle at the most crucial time, while the "macho" types will often wilt like flowers in a desert...

 

[Maguire]

I haven't actually looked at too many posts after so i'll respond to those in turn but let's also remember that a few centuries ago the way the gentleman acted would today seem absolutely ridiculous (and to some degree rightly so) with powdered wigs and frills and fancy breeches, affecting lisps (think Archibald Cunningham from Rob Roy). But even then there was an underlying masculinity and sense of honor and such, all of which are tied to the whole idea of chivalry and the like, which goes back to prehistory, even and can be found in every culture and age without exception. This is true even in the few matriarchal societies that have existed.

as for the idea of what is the best thing or greatest measure of a man it would be his ability to stand up against the tide, or to stand in place without giving ground to anything. I suppose its the old "death before dishonor" mantra, but carried on in everyday life as best as one can carry it. Never wavering on principles even when one has nothing to gain materially from doing so.

 

[get_atomized]

I am just saying that defining it based on something like 'doing whatever it takes' is hardly a gender specific thing and rather a 'Decent and good human' qualification and thus is no closer to defining this 'lost art' then anything else we have seen discussed so far.

Miss Neecerie, I agree - but without re-reading all 15 pages of this thread, I don't seem to recall any articulations defining masculinity or the art of manliness which didn't end up being sort of gender-neutral and applicable to women. Any of the descriptions of manliness that had to do with ideas about "doing whatever it takes", "taking responsibility", "standing the tide", "sacrificing oneself to protect loved ones and the weak" and so one just reminded me that - hey, I need to call my mom!

In my view those are characteristically maternal/parental qualities!

 

[Paisley]

If we exclude qualifiers for manliness that can't be applied to women, what we're left with is father and Navy Seal (more or less).

I like most of the manly qualities that people have named: honor, dignity, self-control, physical strength, leadership, etc. It might be helpful to think of them within a code:

1. You have to be a man for the manliness code to apply.
2. The code is more what you'd call guidelines than actual rules.

 

[Chas]

Product Description
Generation X and Y is a generation of Lost Boys. We live in a Never-Never-Land where boys stay boys and never become men.

I blame the Boomers - it's totally their fault. They had kids and raised them to be narcissicists, with too much self-esteem. For the contemporary generation "it's all about me".

It looks like a useful book, to be sure. I personally don't need it, I have always walked the walk. Demographically, I'm a boomer, but I fell out of step with my contemporaries a long time ago and clung to most of the values of my WW2/Depression generation parents.

 

[High Pockets]

Several years ago a very wise man told me;
"People talk most about what they feel deep inside they have the least of."

After many years I've come to realize just how wise he was, and I've never cared less about being seen as "manly".

I am what I am.

 

[Maguire]

high Pockets- i've heard alot of freudian things like that but sometimes its simply nonesense. Yes, there are insecure people but just because they despise something doesn't mean anything. There are plenty of brave men who despised cowards and weren't secretly cowards on the inside or whatnot.

Without getting political or whatnot, I'll just come out and say that there are virtues and honors for men and virtues and honor for women, and though there is certainly a gray area between them, they are for the most part different, no matter how much the modern world will tell us that we are all exactly the same. Emotionally, mentally, etc, we are built for different things. This doesn't necessarily mean one is built for a superior purpose, merely different, equal, complimentary purposes. Women may have strength but the strength that is considered feminine is the nurturing kind. Indeed some women may find themselves to be tomboyish or have masculine habits, or excel at sports or hobbies or trades of men but they are still women, and they represent an exception. the same apples to men. Exceptions don't disprove the rule. The whole concept of the two sexes as such is as old as time itself and is reflected in most histories and cultures, so as to the whole women's lib movement, i quote GK Chesterton and say on this and many other issues, Don't tear down fences till you fully understand why they were put up.

I hope this isn't too divergent an opinion to render me an outcast but i'll leave it at that, period. My apologies to the admins and mods if it is. If anyone wishes to discuss this further feel free to PM me.

 

[reetpleat]

I am just saying that defining it based on something like 'doing whatever it takes' is hardly a gender specific thing and rather a 'Decent and good human' qualification and thus is no closer to defining this 'lost art' then anything else we have seen discussed so far.

I am not so sure. I mean, of course, taking care of business is the responsible human thing. but i am talking about getting things done sometimes. Think about this. A woman goes to her friend and tells about a problem, and what she is looking for is her frined to say "I know how you feel. that is awful. i fent thta way once. It was terrible." and the womanh feels better.

She goes to a guy and he instead, says, "have you tried this/ have you tried that?" and she gets mad. And the guys gets mad and frustrated thinking "what's the problem? i just gave her the solution.

A guy goes to his friend and says "my car won't start." His friend says "did you check the points? Did you check the carb?" and his friend says "thanks"

Etc.

My point is, I think that men in general, are better at turning off the emotions and doing what needs to be done. Not better owr worse tha women. Just a skill that they tend to be better at.

Dealing with emotions, not as good.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

I am not so sure. I mean, of course, taking care of business is the responsible human thing. but i am talking about getting things done sometimes. Think about this. A woman goes to her friend and tells about a problem, and what she is looking for is her frined to say "I know how you feel. that is awful. i fent thta way once. It was terrible." and the womanh feels better.

She goes to a guy and he instead, says, "have you tried this/ have you tried that?" and she gets mad. And the guys gets mad and frustrated thinking "what's the problem? i just gave her the solution.

A guy goes to his friend and says "my car won't start." His friend says "did you check the points? Did you check the carb?" and his friend says "thanks"

Etc.

My point is, I think that men in general, are better at turning off the emotions and doing what needs to be done. Not better owr worse tha women. Just a skill that they tend to be better at.

Dealing with emotions, not as good.

I think if men weren't so good at turning off their emotions the world would have fewer problems. Although the self-help book industry would suffer.

 

[reetpleat]

I think if men weren't so good at turning off their emotions the world would have fewer problems. Although the self-help book industry would suffer.

I agree. But I also think if women were better at not worrying about their feelings and solving the problem, the world would be better off to.

In other words, lots of people want to tell men to get in touch with their feminine sides and be more complete human beings. I think this is generally good advice. But women are not always encouraged to access their masculine sides a bit now and then. Or to put it more simply, shut up and do something about it. I swear, why do guys have to 'listen' all the time when they clearly have no interest in what is being discussed?

 

[Carlisle Blues]

I wouldn't mind the above-mentioned protecting me either, C., but you're citing the exception, not the rule. Come on, brother, you were in the Army, too...

Yes Lee ....I recall relating an incident to you when we met in LA where everybody with one exception stood outside and let that one person do what was necessary. That meant both men and women were afraid to go forward. I could site other examples, but, this one exemplifies my position. I still hold that this is not gender sensitive.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

I agree. But I also think if women were better at not worrying about their feelings and solving the problem, the world would be better off to.

In other words, lots of people want to tell men to get in touch with their feminine sides and be more complete human beings. I think this is generally good advice. But women are not always encouraged to access their masculine sides a bit now and then. Or to put it more simply, shut up and do something about it. I swear, why do guys have to 'listen' all the time when they clearly have no interest in what is being discussed?

Who said men have to listen? It's a choice. So if I may say it back to you, why not shut up and do something, like respectfully change the subject next time you are "subjected" to a woman talking about feelings instead of whining about it? I don't mean that in a hostile way, just using your own terminology.

 

[Foofoogal]

This thread had espoused differing value sets regarding what is a man, including the premise that a man who is nurturing is less than a man.........NOT

It may seem as I am espousing this but not always so. There are exceptions to every rule.
I know someone very close to me that waited till they were 30 to get married and have a child. Successful bachelor.
When the child was 1 years old the said mother decided she wanted to find herself and left him and the child for another woman.
The man not only raised the son by himself but did a bang up job.
The son is one of of the most courteous, hardworking, smart young men you would ever want to meet.
I would qualify both son and dad as successful men and both have served in the military with honors.
Just for the record. Not ideal situation IMHO but someone had to step up to the responsibility.

 

[Fletch]

Possible line in the sand.

We're talking about meeting one's responsibilities being a sign of...let's say adulthood, nongendered.

Could it be that manliness - to some anyway - lives in approaching responsibility as an abstract duty? Something you do "just because," rather than to help or to fill a need?

Think of the fact that it is historically a man's obligation to serve militarily, which includes acting as a unit, following orders without question, as a core value. Think also of traditional sports as a military substitute, with similar, but less strict, authority and unit values.

This is as good an example as I can find of learning to put one's "emotions" aside - and "emotions" might mean anything from whining to pants-wetting terror to (more sinister yet) the need to determine what is right and worthy by your own codes.

Think finally of responsibility as work, and work as a good in itself. There you pretty much have the Protestant Work Ethic, which traditionally is all mixed up with masculinity. If you're philosophy-minded, think Kant, or deontology.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Or.......she'll be a lesbian.

NTTAWWT

Ah, but there are plenty of needy lesbians around. lol


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