The Lost Art of Manliness

[Richard Warren]

To define manliness, as an art or otherwise, is not manly. To seek to become manly is not manly. The only path to manliness is to accept that one is already manly and has always been manly. Plus avoid leather pants at all costs.

 

[Cody Pendant]

A kick square in the pants!

I think I can sum up the problem succinctly:

Being manly means that you never apologize for having testicles!

That’s what is wrong with this new generation of, as Arnold would say; “girly-men” that is running around here.
A total lack of “Cohonies”.

Confused…..disoriented….don’t know what to do….not when you have a pair!
When the bull walks through a barbed wire fence, you can rest assured he “knows” where he is going!

Getting in touch with your, uh… feminine side…..sounds like something else, so cut it out!
And by the way, if your “Pee-Kup” is not 4-wheel drive and don’t has those their Truck-Nutz, it ain’t NO Truck!

Men….Grow some!

Nuf-said!

 

[Lefty]

To define manliness, as an art or otherwise, is not manly. To seek to become manly is not manly. The only path to manliness is to accept that one is already manly and has always been manly. Plus avoid leather pants at all costs.

The first rule of manliness is...

 

[Foofoogal]

cody :eusa_clap

i was born in West Texas. nuff said.

With my rooster and stallion analogy early in the thread I was trying to say same thing. lol lol

 

[Paisley]

My observation has always been that people who are the real deal don't shout it from the rooftops. They don't have to. They simply get on with whatever it is that they do and make it look easy.

Some of the men in my family (I won't mention names) are much like the type of man Cody Pendant describes. However, the men who have earned my complete trust and respect over the years are a coach I studied under (Master Sang Lee) and a CPA (David Cribari), whom I still work for, and who is the executor of my will. They're both among the best at what they do.

Master Lee had a quiet, cool but pleasant demeanor, yet he commanded respect. He was a sickly child and studied taekwondo to improve his health. He came to this country, started out as a janitor, then started a taekwondo school and became the Olympic head coach. I was young and flustered around him, but he always treated me with respect. When he taught the class, there was no question who was in charge.

As for Dave Cribari, I know people who won't work for anyone else. A national CPA firm hired him several years ago to turn around an accounting office that was in a shambles. Under his leadership, the office has seen double-digit growth for the past several years. The number of employees has doubled since I started working there six years ago. Dave is extremely good at accounting, but more than that, he hires competent people and lets them do their jobs. He can take a joke, but doesn't inspire many. Even when he's displeased, he doesn't cut down a person's dignity. Shortly after I started working for him, I answered the phone stating the name of a competing accounting firm I had recently quit. Dave was on the other end. He was very displeased and told my supervisor; I put a note on the phone to remind myself how to answer it. I never heard about it again. When he was the parter in charge (he's getting ready to retire), there was no question who was running the office.

Both Dave and Master Lee have a quiet dignity: I never knew either of them to brag, thump his chest, lose his temper or cut anyone down. Nor would they take any disrespect. By their actions and manner, they earn the confidence of those around them.

 

[Dr Doran]

Both Dave and Master Lee have a quiet dignity: I never knew either of them to brag, thump his chest, lose his temper or cut anyone down. Nor would they take any disrespect. By their actions and manner, they earn the confidence of those around them.

But that is the rub, isn't it? They don't take disrespect. In the case of Master Lee, he can look at a potential disrespecter, and part of his power is based on a very fundamental ability to intimidate because even on a cellular level, other men know that he could, if necessary, smack them into the carpet.

As for Dave, he has power too. In our society, the power to make money is a big form of power that can secure a vast variety of things. It indicates self-control and mastery of a skill that has become terribly important. In our society.

 

[Fletch]

Does the power indicate the skill? Or is it the skill?

Then again, maybe it can't be named, because you don't name it.

I suspect it isn't the likelihood that anyone lipping back would be met with a wise, well-considered, but impactful verbal lesson in How We All Oughta Get Along.

We reward those who intimidate far better than we do those who illuminate, and I think in part, it's because we're impatient with words. We've been taught to respect actions, because words can lie and because most ideas aren't worth much. But in the absence of any actions, we still want a person who can be in charge by force of personality.

The thing is, I think some of us, especially male and especially leaders, have learned to fake that force of personality, and if we demand a silent, embodying kind of leader, we're vulnerable to those fakers.

Of course, I'm a cynic. I can't trust anyone I can't question. Paisley has served in the military, I know, so she has been in a world where reality is not something you take apart to see how it ticks. She's presumably learned that sometimes you have to trust people you can't question, and that force (even if it's just force of personality) sometimes is the answer.

 

[filfoster]

A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do

I fear this will be of less interest to men who want to learn to be better men, and of much interest to men who think other men need to be taught how to be more like them.

I am pretty content with the man I am, which is, to me, the most manly stance of all.

Plus, i am pretty sure the traditional notion of being a man does not involve spending your time collecting clothing from a bygone era and writing posts on the internet about it. Shouldn't we all be out shooting guns and herding cattle or changing tires or some such?

I laughed out loud. I think reetpleat makes a good point. Can't imagine The Duke or Clint Eastwood posting here on the merits of spectators or two button vs three button suits and whether fedoras should have a bound brim. But it's fun to imagine. And it seems most of us here are secure enough in whatever 'manhood' we have. Still, I wish the current male ethos was a little more 1950's-'60's.

 

[Martinis at 8]

...We reward those who intimidate...

Only those in fear or those who acknowledge that they are somehow a "subordinate" do so, IMO. It's like a dog rolling over on his back.

...We've been taught to respect actions, because words can lie and because most ideas aren't worth much...

I don't think we are taught it, I think it is intrinsic, as it should be. I generally don't trust words, they don't show what one is really made of, actions do.

The thing is, I think some of us, especially male and especially leaders, have learned to fake that force of personality...

Agreed, well said. Some of the fakers eventually get caught. Some of them in a high-stress situation will crack, or artfully deflect the responsibility to someone else, usually a subordinate.

Of course, I'm a cynic. I can't trust anyone I can't question.

Nor should you. This is an important aspect of being self-sovereign.

 

[R.A. Stewart]

... Suzy: He's a guitar player you idiot! Short nails on one hand, long nails on the other. <the cowboy shrugs>
Suzy: Hi, my name is Suzy. How long have you been playing?
M8: Off and on for a while <being evasive>. Wanna hear some?

It dawns on me where I went so terribly wrong.

Suzy: You got a trombone with you?
RAS: No, but there is one on the wall there, see? I have a mouthpiece brush and a bottle of slide oil in my pocket here <breast pocket of the motorcycle jacket>. ...

Nope, that doesn't go anywhere good.

 

[Martinis at 8]

It dawns on me where I went so terribly wrong.

Suzy: You got a trombone with you?
RAS: No, but there is one on the wall there, see? I have a mouthpiece brush and a bottle of slide oil in my pocket here <breast pocket of the motorcycle jacket>. ...

Nope, that doesn't go anywhere good.

LMAO! The slide oil is a killer! lol

 

[Paisley]

But that is the rub, isn't it? They don't take disrespect. In the case of Master Lee, he can look at a potential disrespecter, and part of his power is based on a very fundamental ability to intimidate because even on a cellular level, other men know that he could, if necessary, smack them into the carpet.

As for Dave, he has power too. In our society, the power to make money is a big form of power that can secure a vast variety of things. It indicates self-control and mastery of a skill that has become terribly important. In our society.

Even in a social setting, I'm sure both these men command respect. When you're competent and you respect yourself and others, you tend to get respect back. Yes, both Dave and Master Lee are very skilled, self-controlled people, and I think others sense that. Yet they wear their authority lightly. They have the security that comes from knowing what is worth taking seriously. An empty insult wouldn't throw them off. For me, at least, it's the power of someone you respect being disappointed in you.

I don't think anyone at the taekwondo school was afraid of Master Lee giving them a good round-house kick if they got out of line. In fact, he said that the best way to handle a fight was to avoid one. There was one student with some lacking social skills who Master Lee had one or two private talks with. I can't remember whether he shaped up or shipped out, but the odd behavior didn't continue.

Most of Dave's power over us is the fact that he's our employer. He has also surrounded himself with competent people: the secretary he brought with him will probably have to be replaced by two people when she retires. Yes, he's wealthy, but partly because he's in a good industry and in a business-friendly state. Were he a high school math teacher, I'd still admire him.

 

[reetpleat]

Japan's Herbivore boys

I just heard a piece on NPR that was interesting. Here is an article.

Now, I know I said I was all for men getting in touch with their feminine side, and I know I said I wouldn't be critical about anyone's choices around that. And I don't think we should draw our sense of our own masculinity from external sources such as women.

But I gotta draw the line somewhere. Unless you are gay, if it means you are not interested in women, and it doesn't help you be successful with women, then you are doing it wrong. Me and my friends dress well to atract women who like it as well as for ourselves.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/06/05/japan.herbivore.men/index.html

On a serious note, it seems that these boys, and their counterparts in America are in a crisis, cauht between rejecting the outdated masculinity of their fathers, but not ready to change it rather than reject it outright. Ideally, they will find a healthy balance, and go out and meet some of those evolved women who love evolved men. if not, I fear there will be no children from them to rejct or embrace anything.

 

[Dr Doran]

Now, I know I said I was all for men getting in touch with their feminine side, and I know I said I wouldn't be critical about anyone's choices around that. And I don't think we should draw our sense of our own masculinity from external sources such as women.

But I gotta draw the line somewhere.

Yes.

 

[R.A. Stewart]

Thinking about the original post, I've never seen the book but have been an occasional reader of the website. He seems quite a bit more conservative than I, politically and otherwise, and as others posting here have said, seems to give short shrift to men who are just, for whatever reason, not going to fit the straight, married, professionally employed father role--an admirable life when lived decently well, and absolutely essential to our society, but not the only way of being a man. But I think the real value of what the author has to say(actually what the authors have to say, as I think his wife is generally credited as co-author on his posts) is in his attention to deeper matters of character--loyalty, courage, self-reliance, responsibility, integrity.

In that respect, I'd say it's not fundamentally at odds with M8's self-reliance and self-sovereignty--an elegant summation of two very important virtues, by the way, thank you.

 

[Hamilton_Honey]

The Self-Reliant Woman

I would just like to say that I can change my own flat. Thanks Dad!

 

[Martinis at 8]

...In that respect, I'd say it's not fundamentally at odds with M8's self-reliance and self-sovereignty--an elegant summation of two very important virtues, by the way, thank you.

You are welcome, and thanks for the acknowledgment.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

.


I am teaching my daughter to be self-sovereign. That way, she can find security in herself, rather than seek and depend on a partner to provide it.

.

 

[Martinis at 8]

.
I am teaching my daughter to be self-sovereign. That way, she can find security in herself, rather than seek and depend on a partner to provide it.
.

Proper thinking me thinks. What kind of professions are you recommending?

 

[Hamilton_Honey]

.


I am teaching my daughter to be self-sovereign. That way, she can find security in herself, rather than seek and depend on a partner to provide it.

.

:eusa_clap Good on you, Dad!

Of course the flip side is my Father teaching me to be gracious about accepting help when offered.

It's so nice to hear your daughter has such life-enabling lessons from you

I can't begin to say how much I love and respect my Dad for everything he has taught me.