The general decline in standards today

[LizzieMaine]

If you have a primary source to support your allegation regarding cause of death, I'd like to see it.

I'm going by memory, from Fran Grace's exhaustive biography "Carry A. Nation: Retelling The Life," published by Indiana University Press in 2001. I don't have my copy at hand, but as I remember she was quite clear that Sumalsky himself criticised the newspaper accounts and insisted heart failure was the cause of death. Unless you've got a death certificate to show me, I'm not convinced by the newspapers, which as I say had a strong anti-temperance bias in 1911.

My point in mentioning her alongside Mother Jones was their place in feminist iconography. Nation was a firm believer in women's suffrage, workers' rights, and aid to the poor, as was Jones -- politically, they were part of the same continuum. Grace's biography does much to point out that Nation was far more than the stereotyped "religious fanatic" her opponents made her out to be. Prohibitionism was a militantly feminist cause at the turn of the century, and for the prominence she achieved Nation ought to be considered as much of a feminist icon as Jones is.

 

[ChiTownScion]

Unless you've got a death certificate to show me ...
QUOTE]

That would be, by definition, a primary source. As would the transcript of a coroner's inquest. Absent either, there is no direct evidence as to cause of death.

Agenda motivated historical revisionism vs. contemporaneous yellow journalism: in the end, neither serves the end of objectivity.

 

[Touchofevil]

I have to give you some really high level of respect if you have been in the "educational" field for a long time. You also must have a great deal of compassion and forgiveness. Although my educational degrees could allow me to teach, (not my major but could go into teaching if so desired), there is no way I could tolerate what some teachers have to face daily. They get to deal with some really ignorant parents, as well as out of control children. No one can win at times some of the issues that are tossed at a teacher, and yet everyone wants to demand the teacher "fixes" everything that happens. School is more "risky" today then when my generation grew up. Far too much non respect from the masses. However, I also do know there are students that are so good and have that "natural" goodness in them and I sure do hope that makes up for the difference. I could never be a teacher...more so how things are today.

I have been teaching at the same alternative high school in a economically strapped area for twenty one years. I really enjoy what I do and the people with whom I work; students definitely included. The job and clientele have changed over the years, but it is still a very rewarding job. It can be frustrating, the blaming, the ignorant non-parents, and the politics, but the kids are the saving grace. There are many more good kids than there are pain-in-the-necks and that is why I keep going back. That and the fact that I am too young for retirement.

 

[LuvMyMan]

I fear that we may be at cross purposes here.

What, precisely, is your definition of "Politically Correct"?

"Imagine someone's small child has the misfortune of sneeking off and heading to the local lake, almost to be walking to a place on the lake. Individuals observe this at some small distance away. No one can even yell or display anything to distract the child...because the "politically correct" have gained so much control over everyone's freedoms and have dictated what is allowed in public....so...the child is not reached in time...the small child then fallsl into the lake and drown. The group of politically correct would simply smile and make mention how nice it was that everyone "conformed" to their laws and policies...no mention of the drowned small child made mention."

Has this actually happened anywhere?
I should really like to read the news story.

Not happened yet, (story of example about small child).

Best example I can give to you per what I see (only a fraction of the entire group, force, organization of Politically correct gang), is this:

Several thousand Blue Tennis shoes claim they have been treated unfairly and are not allowed out of their boxes. But they made the protest about it, in mass....so their claim to be kept in the box, is false. If YOU then make mention of that as a fact, that they LIED about being kept in the box, then you are now "victimized" by saying one single word about how dishonest the Blue Tennis shoes have been and that their claims are in fact, totally false. But the Politically correct are not done with you, yet. You had the nerve to say one single thing bad about the Blue Tennis shoes. You are now the "target" of the Politically Correct crew....They want to insure the facts you made come to light, to be swept under the rug. Never mind who is honest. They know they can state YOU are rude, or come up with a multifaceted reasons why you are the bad person here, and for the focus on the truth is ignored...because they have already made you be the headlines of the day, week, month and year. They will and do always have some excuse to misdirect the media and the truth, to their favor.

And really, you know who the Politically Correct groups are. I am certain you have the educational and media observation ability to know exactly what I have already stated.

 

[Stormy]

It should be called "Bring Your P*mp/John To A Dance". I've seen some very revealing prom dresses leaving little to the imagination.[/QUOTE]

Right! I call it "The Annual Pimp N Hoe Party!"

 

[LuvMyMan]

I have been teaching at the same alternative high school in a economically strapped area for twenty one years. I really enjoy what I do and the people with whom I work; students definitely included. The job and clientele have changed over the years, but it is still a very rewarding job. It can be frustrating, the blaming, the ignorant non-parents, and the politics, but the kids are the saving grace. There are many more good kids than there are pain-in-the-necks and that is why I keep going back. That and the fact that I am too young for retirement.

This is why I stated I give you some very deep respect.

Many years ago when my Husband was working out of his "Up North" location for doing commercial building, he knew many of the other "local" business people. One was a family owned Party Store. The family that owned the store were not too bright and had many issues locally with the law. Their children were all out of control much more than anything that ever hit the news in this State, and in part the Parents were absolutely horrible parents and really fairly horrible people as well. Their child made the news as a Teacher used duct tape to tape their child's mouth close. Never mind what the child was saying...or how the child acted...never came into the picture as all that mattered was to the media the horrible thing the teacher did....(so says the politically correct crowd). We actually were at a Kmart store and heard what they Parents had to say to other people they had a conversation with about the entire event. They really did not care one small bit that their child was out of control...nor did they even care their child had some duct tape placed on the child's mouth. They only had to brag how much they would sue for and include the teacher to lose her job. Believe me, that child was treated far worse by family than anything the Teacher ever could think of doing to try to control that small sized "monster". The Child would BRAG about what they got away with. Same as the Parents. The politically correct crowd came into the picture to back up the Child...the family won (out of court) enough money to bail themselves out of financial issues with their lack of business skills, pay off bills, buy new cars and boats and a home, and nothing changed about how out of control the entire family continued to act around that area.
The child mentioned would kick total strangers in the stores, throw large rocks at people merely walking past the home, glass soda pop bottles at people while with the family shopping., use shopping carts to slam into parked cars, just a small example of what that child was like. And no debate will even change my thoughts that a application to close his ability to tell class members and the teachers to go "f" off and worse, was nothing wrongful one small bit. Just a few examples that some factual thing happen....so...no...I would not have just placed duct tape on the child.....that would be a luxury compared to what I would have done. Parents blamed the teacher for their child's conduct (to the newspaper) and of course, no one ever published the entire story. It did not sell unless it was the "politically correct" version.

 

[ChiTownScion]

..the family won (out of court) enough money to bail themselves out of financial issues with their lack of business skills, pay off bills, buy new cars and boats and a home, and nothing changed about how out of control the entire family continued to act around that area.

Pity. They should have saved half and put the other into a decent diversified portfolio. From what you said, it sounds as though they're going to need every cent for defending the little darling in future criminal cases.

But there is a lot more at play here than "political correctness."

If this kid was/is chucking rocks and bottles at strangers, he should have delinquency petitions filed against him. And yeah...I know that for the first two or three times, all he may get is the proverbial slap on the wrist. However, after a few times, even the most lenient judge will come to the point where enough is enough. Many states will even hold the parents of such kids criminally liable if it can be shown that they failed to take reasonable measures to prevent foreseeable criminal conduct.

And then there is the option of fighting fire with fire: sue the bastards. If the kid causes damages and/or injury to the property or person of others, that conduct is foreseeable, and the parents failed in their duty to take reasonable to prevent such damage or injury, they should be pursued civilly.

This isn't as much about "political correctness" as it is inertia and lack of backbone. The parents clearly availed themselves to their legal remedies: shame on the others who suffered at the hands of their kid for not doing the same.

 

[LuvMyMan]

Pity. They should have saved half and put the other into a decent diversified portfolio. From what you said, it sounds as though they're going to need every cent for defending the little darling in future criminal cases.

But there is a lot more at play here than "political correctness."

If this kid was/is chucking rocks and bottles at strangers, he should have delinquency petitions filed against him. And yeah...I know that for the first two or three times, all he may get is the proverbial slap on the wrist. However, after a few times, even the most lenient judge will come to the point where enough is enough. Many states will even hold the parents of such kids criminally liable if it can be shown that they failed to take reasonable measures to prevent foreseeable criminal conduct.

And then there is the option of fighting fire with fire: sue the bastards. If the kid causes damages and/or injury to the property or person of others, that conduct is foreseeable, and the parents failed in their duty to take reasonable to prevent such damage or injury, they should be pursued civilly.

This isn't as much about "political correctness" as it is inertia and lack of backbone. The parents clearly availed themselves to their legal remedies: shame on the others who suffered at the hands of their kid for not doing the same.

In many ways due to the long term family ties to that area's history, (same family living in a very small town for around 125 years, ) seemed to be enough mostly for keeping anyone from seeing a jail cell for more than a evening. But yes, sooner or later the children will be very popular television stars......well sort of...on America's Most Wanted!

 

[Touchofevil]

This is why I stated I give you some very deep respect.

And it is very much appreciated.

 

[LuvMyMan]

Another prime example. (true story)....happened in the same small town.....Several young teenagers (none had reached the age of having a drivers license) decided to have a party. The Parents of some of these teenagers felt it would be fine to provide booze and beer and food for this party. Average age was 15 year olds at this party.

Into the party for a few hours, four or five teenagers decide to "take" the family van, and go for a drive. They head to a old Airbase that is at the time, closed down and open to the public. There are many small side roads all over the base, and one has a small yet steep and short hill. The van being driven by the owner's daughter, finds its way to this hill at speeds of over one hundred miles an hour. A large tree is on the back side of this hill. The van hits the hill, and yes, it flips and spins and hits the tree. I cannot recall if death was to come to a number of the teenagers or not. But most of them are in critical condition. It was such a sad thing to begin with. But...here is the politically correct crew at it's finest. Not one single person was charged with any criminal conduct. Not the children nor any parents. The only issue other than to report the initial event, was that the Base was at fault for having a dangerous hill..........the Base had been given over to the City and guess who was suing over it? Guess what the media supported? The hill is gone now. One of the Teenagers in the van later died at home after that teenagers Parent allowed her to have a "drug" party in their basement, and another teenager committed suicide after learning that young girl had overdosed on drugs. Again, no arrests. national news but no arrest...why? The Politically correct crew made such an amazing job of reporting how much sorrow and pain the entire community had suffered that it was decided not to charge anyone with any criminal conduct. Two years later the adults that had supplied the drugs to the teens at that home, robbed a local Pharmacy and injured the customers and Pharmacist inside during the robbery. No charges at all due to the adult robbers had been related in some ways to the family of the teen that died, and the media supported that "story" to the public...good old "politically correctness" again. This is all small scale stuff that happens and it is worse when you get into the big leagues....of which is forbidden to discuss here in the Lounge.

 

[Stearmen]

I have been teaching at the same alternative high school in a economically strapped area for twenty one years. I really enjoy what I do and the people with whom I work; students definitely included. The job and clientele have changed over the years, but it is still a very rewarding job. It can be frustrating, the blaming, the ignorant non-parents, and the politics, but the kids are the saving grace. There are many more good kids than there are pain-in-the-necks and that is why I keep going back. That and the fact that I am too young for retirement.

I fore one, still consider teaching a noble profession! It is a shame, that in a certain part of our culture, teachers are reviled! Keep fighting the good fight!

 

[ChiTownScion]

I'm going by memory, from Fran Grace's exhaustive biography "Carry A. Nation: Retelling The Life," published by Indiana University Press in 2001. I don't have my copy at hand, but as I remember she was quite clear that Sumalsky himself criticised the newspaper accounts and insisted heart failure was the cause of death. Unless you've got a death certificate to show me, I'm not convinced by the newspapers, which as I say had a strong anti-temperance bias in 1911. QUOTE]

Okay, I admit it: you motivated me to look into this, Lizzie.

I now have had the opportunity to purchase and read Fran Grace‘s Carry A. Nation: Retelling the Life. At no point does Grace present any references to direct evidence as to Nation’s cause of death.

Her sole source as to the cause of death being heart failure and not paresis is based upon a footnote in Herbert Asbury’s 1929 biography of Nation, based upon alleged private and unpublished correspondence between Asbury and Nation’s physician. [Ref. footnote 35, Chapter 10]. Grace does not bother to name the physician. Nor is any mention made by Grace as to the influence of the manufacturers of alcoholic beverages exercising influence over newspapers of the day to bring about an unfavorable account of Nation’s cause of death.

It is interesting as to how Grace herself describes Asbury’s Nation biography:

“The only serious biography published about her, Herbert Asbury’s Carrie Nation, was tainted by its Northeastern bias and dismissive attitude toward women.” [ref. p. 1].

This raises, of course, the issue as to why Grace deems Asbury’s work as unreliable as an account as to Nation’s life, but somehow, conclusive as to cause of death.

Grace draws heavily upon “newly discovered” personal correspondence of Nation, such as letters and diaries. These would not, of course resolve the issue of whether the cause of death was heart failure or paresis (and thus by the common implication of 1911 as to the latter, congenital syphilis). Unless someone conducts an exhumation, postmortem, and toxicology testing 103 years after the fact, I’d say that at this point there is no hard evidence as to what the woman died from.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Thanks for digging that out -- it saves me the trouble of going up to the attic to look for my copy. I read it ten years ago, so my memory was fuzzy.

I didn't say Grace claimed the newspapers were biased. I myself say that -- it's quite obvious when you look at press coverage of the temperance movement during the 1900-1915 period. If you'd like to look into that as well, be my guest.

Either way, Carry's still one of my favorite historical characters, and an outstanding example of radical turn-of-the-century feminism -- and if I could get away with following her example and taking a hatchet to modern peddlers of deleterious recreational poisons, don't think I wouldn't.

 

[ChiTownScion]

Either way, Carry's still one of my favorite historical characters, and an outstanding example of radical turn-of-the-century feminism -- and if I could get away with following her example and taking a hatchet to modern peddlers of deleterious recreational poisons, don't think I wouldn't.

I'd look before I'd leap as to picking up the hatchet to that end.It's a far more litigious world we live in now, and I think criminal law enforcement would be a lot more stringent than it was back then.

But... I found out another interesting tidbit regarding Nation along the way, according to the entry on her in Notable American Women: A Biographical Dictionary, Volumes 1-3: 1607-1950 (Harvard University Press, 1970). It seems that the last saloon keeper that Nation ever raised a hatchet against was a female saloon keeper in Montana, who evidently hit back, and hit back hard. Fran Grace never mentions it in her work, to either confirm or deny it... but I think there is something in that which is more than a little ironic. We've got a few Montana women in our family, and they are not a breed to be messed with. I think that any female saloon keeper in that state would be the proverbial force to be reckoned with.

Here's a link on the incident:
http://ellenbaumler.blogspot.com/2012/06/carrie-nation.html

 

[LizzieMaine]

Strictly speaking, of course, that wasn't just a bar -- it was a cathouse, and it was the madam who beat her up. Since Carry was six feet tall and over 170 lbs, the madam must've been a genuinely terrifying creature.

 

[Nobert]

and if I could get away with following her example and taking a hatchet to modern peddlers of deleterious recreational poisons, don't think I wouldn't.

Madam, you are speaking of the deleterious recreational poison I love.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I'm thinking more of what they grow up in Starks. What I wouldn't give for a plane and a tank of Paraquat.

 

[jamespowers]

I'm thinking more of what they grow up in Starks. What I wouldn't give for a plane and a tank of Paraquat.

I like Agent Orange better for that stuff

 

[jamespowers]

I'd look before I'd leap as to picking up the hatchet to that end.It's a far more litigious world we live in now, and I think criminal law enforcement would be a lot more stringent than it was back then.

But... I found out another interesting tidbit regarding Nation along the way, according to the entry on her in Notable American Women: A Biographical Dictionary, Volumes 1-3: 1607-1950 (Harvard University Press, 1970). It seems that the last saloon keeper that Nation ever raised a hatchet against was a female saloon keeper in Montana, who evidently hit back, and hit back hard. Fran Grace never mentions it in her work, to either confirm or deny it... but I think there is something in that which is more than a little ironic. We've got a few Montana women in our family, and they are not a breed to be messed with. I think that any female saloon keeper in that state would be the proverbial force to be reckoned with.

Here's a link on the incident:
http://ellenbaumler.blogspot.com/2012/06/carrie-nation.html

Hmmmm.....She got the boot. lol lol

 

[Hemingway Jones]

Sorry, I can't read yellow!