The general decline in standards today

[Dennis Young]

This is a bit off topic so forgive me. But one of the things I did admire about Hollywood in the past is the patriotic films they made during WW2. They really did a fine job even if it was propaganda. Also I’ve seen good quality films that openly criticize gangs and violence. I think Public Enemy is one such film but I cant remember. Hollywood…the industry, has the ability to do a lot of good imo, and still make a lot of money. I’m hopeful that the tide is beginning to change for the better. J

 

[Harp]

As long as you view TFP as notes on a work in progress, that's all well and good. But there are too many people who chapter-and-verse those as though they were the works of the Church Fathers, and they're bound and determined to put the Arian heresy in its place. You'll easily recognize their websites -- lots of portraits of men in powdered wigs, lots of flags, eagles, quill pens, Liberty Bells and other icons of the Most Holy Faith.

The Constitution has an amendment process but the document itself has been writ. It is a marvelous work struck by pragmatists,
and those issues arising in common discourse all have recourse to the essays and free and open debate under law.

 

[dh66]

I remember that: I was ten years old at the time and my parents and their contemporaries spoke of it for weeks. The conversation usually included at least one comment as to how cold and indifferent New Yorkers were-- a comment inevitably proffered by someone who'd never even been to New York City.

I can understand the reluctance to not getting involved when someone else is threatened, however. My 19 year old son stepped between a woman and her abusive boyfriend, and got a knife through his heart for his trouble. Getting killed is certainly not something someone his age usually considers: I wish he had. But I do think that there are measures that a reasonably prudent person could undertake that do not have such tragic and permanent consequences, especially in this day and age of universal cell phones.

Damn!!
First let me saythat I am truly, truly sorry to hear of your loss, and that, as a father, I cannot begin to wrap my mind around how truly unfathomably devastating it must be to lose a child. There are no words to make it better, just know my heart aches for you.
Second, your story brought to mind an incident from many, many years ago. My friends and I were out one night, at a local pool hall (really, is there a better place to find trouble?) when a fellow and his girl began to get into it. We watched as it escalated from shouting to pushing to a swat that sent her reeling. At that point, three of us got up and backed the guy into a corner and..........she freaks on us. We're a bunch of mf-ers and we'd better leave him alone and she's gonna call the cops on us, etc. etc. etc. The two of them composed themselves and left. Together.
No one died, thankfully, but the whole incident certainly colored my way of approaching a situation from then on.

 

[LizzieMaine]

That’s a good observation. I recall somewhere (I forget where) that some were questioning the choice of films made during this year’s Academy awards. They felt that “American Sniper” should have been up for more awards and it was shunned by some of the movers and shakers because of its content. I think it got an award for something. I havent seen the film so I don’t know if it was really good enough. But apparently a lot of folks think so because the box office sales are through the roof. J

"Birdman" bombed for us. Not because it was "liberal" or "conservative" but because it was pretentious arthouse psychobabble. "Whiplash" was one of the biggest hits of the winter around here, and should have cleaned up at the Oscars. Not because it was "liberal" or "conservative," but because it was the best picture I've seen in six months.

 

[Dennis Young]

I was responding to "your town is not heartland America." My town is part of what *founded* America. You can't get more heartland than that. But I digress. I wasn't responding to the article in that remark. I do find the "heartland" phrase and its converse, the "coastal elites" to be a good example of what's been discussed in another part of this thread, the whole Golden Calf polarization of discourse, but whatever.

I saw that article, at any rate, in the print edition, and yeah, that's some pretty fancy skewing of definitions to suit an agenda. I don't consider something like "The Artist" to be a "conservative" movie as opposed to a "liberal" movie. "The Artist" did very well for us because it was a well-made, well-acted film. "Juno" -- which I suppose you would call a liberal movie for glorifying teen pregnancy, or maybe it was a conservative movie because she rejected the idea of abortion, gee, I dunno what it would be except a well-made, well-acted film -- did even better. So there y'go.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I have over thirty years experience in the media, and you can take what I have to say or leave it. You already know the answer you want before you ask the question, which is fine. The idea that a shadowy *someone* is controlling Hollywood with a sinister agenda is actually a very Golden Era idea. If you've read the correspondence files of the Breen Office, as I have, old Joseph Ignatius was very very big on that idea. He, Henry Ford, and Col. Lindbergh were in full accord on that point, if you get my drift.

The heartland thing was not meant to be an insult. I’m sure you have a fine town. J

I think its clear by now your impression on whether film has anything to do with society and our present culture. That you work in the industry as you say, has absolutely nothing to do with your impression either. I mean, not trying to be mean, but you arent exactly unbiased now are you? J
I don’t work in the industry. Nor do I work for any church or Conservative Family Values group. Lol! I’m just a guy out here in cyber land making some observationg. Yes, I’m a bit biased as I am very conservative. So there’s that. But at the same time, its hard to argue with numbers.
A few of my religious friends would criticize old 60s tv shows like ‘Bewitched’ and “I Dream of Genie”. I don’t. I think they were fantastic shows and similar shows ought to be mainstream today. The Walton seems cornball to some I guess, but it won awards. And today there is a tv show called Granite Flats that should be nominated for an award every year imo. Its about the cold War and is very interesting, and well made.
Hollywood can make good films that sell well if they wanted. I hope that more and more of these shows will begin popping up and the trend will change. I think we’d all be better for it. J

 

[Dennis Young]

"Birdman" bombed for us. Not because it was "liberal" or "conservative" but because it was pretentious arthouse psychobabble. "Whiplash" was one of the biggest hits of the winter around here, and should have cleaned up at the Oscars. Not because it was "liberal" or "conservative," but because it was the best picture I've seen in six months.

I think there’s a place for certain films like that. I don’t know about it being liberal or whatever. I even think there’s a place for Seth McFarland’s cartoons. Adult Swim comes on late at night and I would like to see it there instead of on Prime Time. I like Archer, which is over the top in comparison to the Simpsons. J But its on late at night when the kiddies probably ought to be in bed.


There are some particularly bloody Westerns and war films that are classics today and I loved them. Sam Peckinpah made some great one. The Wild Bunch is a classic. Some i don’t mean to come across as being some sort of puritan. I watch too occasionally. But I prefer John Ford over Peckinpah.


Schindler’s List is a tough film to watch. But its fantastic! The boy in the Striped Pajama’s is one I mentioned in another thread and it should be listed as one of the finest films of all time. But its hard to ignore Casablanca, Citizen Kane, and great films that were pretty tame by today’s standards. J

And see…if they would schedule these films and tv shows more appropriately, if they’d bring back family viewing time, then the entertainers and producers would have a much stronger argument when they say it’s the parents’ fault if their kids watch their tv shows. Because at present, you can be watching a family film one hour and it be followed immediately by smut on the same channel. A parent would have to hover over their kid 24/7 and who can realistically do that?

 

[LizzieMaine]

Actually, it's very easy to argue with numbers, which is why I don't do it. It's very easy, especially with the Internet, to cook up numbers to support any thesis you want to promote. "Figures don't lie, but..."

I'm not a fan of sixties tv, for the most part. I think Newton Minow was right about most of it. The Twilight Zone was good, most of the time, I enjoy the first two seasons of Star Trek, but the third is cheap, tawdry swill, and I never cared for most of the sitcoms, with the exception of The Beverly Hillbillies -- which was most prescient satire of capitalism ever done on television -- and Green Acres, which was a work of genius on every level. I could never stand Westerns, because they were all exactly the same show with different actors, and I never liked the spy-espionage stuff with the exception of Get Smart, which pointed out how silly that whole genre really was.

My favorite sixties show while the sixties were still going on was "The Twenty-First Century," which was fascinating, educational stuff despite being a thirty minute weekly puff piece for Union Carbide. I wouldn't mind seeing more shows like that now. The only current show I watch is "Doctor Who," but I liked it better when they had the skinny kid with the bow tie. He was easy to look at.

 

[Harp]

"Birdman" bombed for us. Not because it was "liberal" or "conservative" but because it was pretentious arthouse psychobabble. "Whiplash" was one of the biggest hits of the winter around here, and should have cleaned up at the Oscars. Not because it was "liberal" or "conservative," but because it was the best picture I've seen in six months.

I suspected as much about Birdman- a-la-Shakespeare in Love. :eeek:

Haven't seen Whiplash. But I still never caught Moneyball, Brad Pitt's portrayal of Billy Bean of the A's.

 

[Dennis Young]

Actually, it's very easy to argue with numbers, which is why I don't do it. It's very easy, especially with the Internet, to cook up numbers to support any thesis you want to promote. "Figures don't lie, but..."

I'm not a fan of sixties tv, for the most part. I think Newton Minow was right about most of it. The Twilight Zone was good, most of the time, I enjoy the first two seasons of Star Trek, but the third is cheap, tawdry swill, and I never cared for most of the sitcoms, with the exception of The Beverly Hillbillies -- which was most prescient satire of capitalism ever done on television -- and Green Acres, which was a work of genius on every level. I could never stand Westerns, because they were all exactly the same show with different actors, and I never liked the spy-espionage stuff with the exception of Get Smart, which pointed out how silly that whole genre really was.

My favorite sixties show while the sixties were still going on was "The Twenty-First Century," which was fascinating, educational stuff despite being a thirty minute weekly puff piece for Union Carbide. I wouldn't mind seeing more shows like that now. The only current show I watch is "Doctor Who," but I liked it better when they had the skinny kid with the bow tie. He was easy to look at.

Those are wonderful shows. And The Beverly Hillbillies and Green Acres were among my favorites. J

Again, I’m straying a bit off topic but I like the Britcoms too. Some of them. I like ‘Are You Being Served?’. I like Dr Who but I don’t watch it much anymore. I liked Tom Baker in the role of the Doctor. But the skinny guy was good too.


I liked ‘The Avengers’, the Brit spy series. All wonderful shows! Wish they’d make more shows like those and keep within the standards of (for lack of a better word) decency.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I think there’s a place for certain films like that. I don’t know about it being liberal or whatever. I even think there’s a place for Seth McFarland’s cartoons.

I have no use for Seth McFarland at all, or any of his shows. Not because of his politics, but because he's about as funny as a stomach pump.

I don't care for westerns at all, never have. The best film John Ford ever made was "The Grapes of Wrath," but he left out more of the book than he should have. Of course, Mr. Breen had a hand in that too. There are only two war movies I have any interest in -- "The Big Parade" and "All Quiet On The Western Front."

Casablanca's OK, but it's pretty tiresome when it's the only 30s-40s movie people have ever seen. They ought to try "The Petrified Forest" or "High Sierra" or "The Big Shot" if they like Bogart. I can take him or leave him myself.

If I'm watching movies for myself I prefer thirties musicals more than any other genre. Far better than the overblown Technicolor stuff of the forties and fifties.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I suspected as much about Birdman- a-la-Shakespeare in Love. :eeek:

Haven't seen Whiplash. But I still never caught Moneyball, Brad Pitt's portrayal of Billy Bean of the A's.

"Whiplash" may be the most intense ninety minutes you'll ever experience in a theatre. They should have given Simmons every Oscar on the table and sent everyone home early.

 

[Dennis Young]

I have no use for Seth McFarland at all, or any of his shows. Not because of his politics, but because he's about as funny as a stomach pump.

I don't care for westerns at all, never have. The best film John Ford ever made was "The Grapes of Wrath," but he left out more of the book than he should have. Of course, Mr. Breen had a hand in that too. There are only two war movies I have any interest in -- "The Big Parade" and "All Quiet On The Western Front."

Casablanca's OK, but it's pretty tiresome when it's the only 30s-40s movie people have ever seen. They ought to try "The Petrified Forest" or "High Sierra" or "The Big Shot" if they like Bogart. I can take him or leave him myself.

If I'm watching movies for myself I prefer thirties musicals more than any other genre. Far better than the overblown Technicolor stuff of the forties and fifties.

See, and I don’t really care for musicals unless maybe Gene Kelly or Leslie Caron are in them. I still have a crush on her.
Also the music industry. I’m really ill-equipped to go into much depth on current music. The 60s and 70s were very good eras for music, but they had very suggestive lyrics at times. I think, however there’s a difference between the song “Feel like making love” and “Cop Killer’s lyrics which go:
I got my twelve gauge sawed off
I got my headlights turned off
I'm 'bout to bust some shots off
I'm 'bout to dust some cops off

Cop killer, better you than me
Cop killer, (blank) police brutality
Cop killer, I know your family's grievin'
(blank) 'em
Cop killer, but tonight we get even
I sanitized the lyrics a bit. And there are worse songs than that which are targeting our youth.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Actually, I always found sixties and seventies music to be intolerably puerile -- even when I was its target audience I hated it. I don't listen to modern music at all, and I've got absolutely no interest in it. I don't think there's been a decent song written in the United States since 1942.

 

[jamespowers]

If we all lived by that, we wouldn't need this discussion, ever. But sadly, thruout human history, most people have not lived that way. Which is why Evil has gotten along so well down thru the centuries.

I hope not too well through the centuries. :doh:

 

[ChiTownScion]

"Whiplash" may be the most intense ninety minutes you'll ever experience in a theatre. They should have given Simmons every Oscar on the table and sent everyone home early.

I thought he was terrific in that role as well. You see J. K. Simmons on a screen, and your first thought is that he's that lovable guy from the Farmers Insurance commercials and the guy who played the nice dad in Juno.. but in Whiplash he played such an unmitigated sh**heel that you're seething with rage at him by the end. As I have always said, playing a villain and antagonist with nuance and complexity so well that the audience has its aggregate blood boiling at the end of the film is the stuff of great acting.

 

[jamespowers]

Actually, I always found sixties and seventies music to be intolerably puerile -- even when I was its target audience I hated it.

I am right with you there. It stunk.

 

[Dennis Young]

I hope not too well through the centuries. :doh:

Eh…I believe in the concept that evil or sin is in everyone. But that’s touching on religion so I wont get into all that.


But “The Shadow” said that he knew the evil that was in the hearts of men. So if it was in all of us, that’s the problem. Evil is in everyone, and it can lie dormant, like a slow smouldering fire. Then an outside source (like an event in y our life, or something in the news or the entertainment industry) can be like tossing a can of gas on that fire. Not always, but it can happen. J

 

[Bushman]

That's because the entertainment industry's biggest audience are themselves. Such is the narcissism of Hollywood that they continue to churn out such films to garner respect and admiration from their peers even though these movies generally flop at the box office. Not to put it crudely but it's a multimillion dollar exercise in mental masturbation.

And this is the exact problem I have with the Oscars. Same with the CMA, the Grammy's, and the Golden Globes. They may have had merit once, but now they're just a glitzy night for Hollywood stars to show up half-naked and pat themselves on the back. "Oh, we did such a good job! Yay Hollywood!" *yucky*

That’s a good observation. I recall somewhere (I forget where) that some were questioning the choice of films made during this year’s Academy awards. They felt that “American Sniper” should have been up for more awards and it was shunned by some of the movers and shakers because of its content. I think it got an award for something. I havent seen the film so I don’t know if it was really good enough. But apparently a lot of folks think so because the box office sales are through the roof. J

The Oscars shunning American Sniper was actually both surprising and a relief to me. Surprising because the film was such obvious Oscar bait, and because the film had a such a "Yeah! Let's go out and fight sum terrorists!" aura to it. It would work well as a propaganda film if only because if makes the audience feel the urge to enlist right out of the theater (at least, I felt that way). It's a relief to me that it didn't win "Best Picture" simply because I honestly found it to be very average. It just didn't engage me quite like Fury did, and nor did I find that it had the impact on me that Fury had. I watch Fury, and I understand why my father, grandfathers, and everybody else I know that served don't like talking about the battles. American Sniper shows the emotional and psychological side of warfare, but then again so does Fury, and Fury does it better anyway. Fury also successfully shows the physically brutal side of warfare, which American Sniper prefers to skirt around.

 

[LizzieMaine]

The Oscars have never had merit other than as a publicity stunt. Show biz has been ever thus.

 

[Dennis Young]

And this is the exact problem I have with the Oscars. Same with the CMA, the Grammy's, and the Golden Globes. They may have had merit once, but now they're just a glitzy night for Hollywood stars to show up half-naked and pat themselves on the back. "Oh, we did such a good job! Yay Hollywood!" *yucky*
The Oscars shunning American Sniper was actually both surprising and a relief to me. Surprising because the film was such obvious Oscar bait, and because the film had a such a "Yeah! Let's go out and fight sum terrorists!" aura to it. It would work well as a propaganda film if only because if makes the audience feel the urge to enlist right out of the theater (at least, I felt that way). It's a relief to me that it didn't win "Best Picture" simply because I honestly found it to be very average. It just didn't engage me quite like Fury did, and nor did I find that it had the impact on me that Fury had. I watch Fury, and I understand why my father, grandfathers, and everybody else I know that served don't like talking about the battles. American Sniper shows the emotional and psychological side of warfare, but then again so does Fury, and Fury does it better anyway. Fury also successfully shows the physically brutal side of warfare, which American Sniper prefers to skirt around.

I havent see it yet. I tellya though I think Band of Brothers and Platoon and Saving Private Ryan all showed a brutality to war as well. J