The general decline in standards today

[angeljenny]

Uh oh - I think I am a sheep.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

As simplicity can provide a wonderful clarity, I don't think a framework should be attacked just for being simple. For being wrong, yes, but I don't think this analogy is wrong and if it is then it's certainly not wrong because it's cynical. It also doesn't have to be the only model of the world. Others are allowed to overlap it.

There is simplicity, simplifying and stereotyping. I don't think stereotyping and simplifying can lead to "clarity" since what is true for people always involves complications, inconsistencies and mystery as to what motivates us. Simplicity is very nice, especially when discussing things, and I generally generalize on here for simplicity's sake. But when it comes to "types" of people and what motivates them I will never claim to be an expert despite having an advanced degree in human psychology.

I didn't think it was wrong for being cynical but for being cynical only while leaving out other variables and viewpoints. You state that models can overlap- yes, they are only variables in a big picture. In the case of this specific framework, I think it was oversimplified and leaves out the issue of nurturing.

It's human nature to want to make the world tidy and simple, so to run with the framework in question, I can see some overbearing sheepdogs wanting to to justify seeing those they patronize as "sheep" while vilifying wolves so that they view their actions and attitudes as noble.

Having said all that, I think you make interesting and well thought out points and I really enjoy spirited dialog. I wouldn't call my response an attack, at least not given my (written word) arsenal.

 

[sheeplady]

My parents have lived in the same neighborhood for over 30 years and run a farm. During that time, they have seen all their original neighbors replaced. For the first time in that 30+ years, a neighbor offered his and his wife's help to my parents this past winter. The best part is that the neighbors noticed the changes in my mother's chore schedule, and checked up on her to make sure that everything was ok with my father (he was on bedrest for 7 months). The neighbor was sincere about helping, and later even gave my mother a copy of their schedules and what times they could help, complete with contact information at home and at work for emergencies.

My parents have never had a neighbor they felt they could call if something went wrong, and now they do. Now along the way, they've had people who have made horrific trouble for them, but these neighbors seem great, way better than the neighbors who had been there before my parents' moved in, who kept mainly to themselves with only one or two exceptions.

 

[AtomicEraTom]

My grandpa had built his house on 60th and Hampton in Milwaukee when he married my Grandma in 1951. A humble 1500 square foot-ish mid-century ranch. It was on a dirt road on the far outskirts of Milwaukee, then Wauatosa. You had to walk 3 blocks to the mailbox. Time went on, more houses came up, roads were paved, Milwaukee annexed, Capitol Court went up. It became a busy suburb. By the 80's the neighborhood was in decline, all the old neighbors were gone, they didn't know anybody, and nobody wanted to know them, and in 1987, Grandpa and Grandma were the final holdouts and finally moved, completing the 'white flight' of the neighborhood.

My grandpa says that as the years went on. It was like this.
1950s: "Mike, why do you live way out in the sticks?"
1960s: "Mike, why do you live in the burbs?"
1970s: "Mike, why do you live in the middle of the city?"
1980s: "Mike, why do you live in the ghetto?"

As things changed, the neighborhood got worse, and poor families moved in and crime ran rampant. Finally, the area is starting to turn back around. It's sad that people don't want to know their neighbors. Sometimes I think it's so that bad things can happen to them, without having to feel guilty about it.

My parents have lived in the same neighborhood for over 30 years and run a farm. During that time, they have seen all their original neighbors replaced. For the first time in that 30+ years, a neighbor offered his and his wife's help to my parents this past winter. The best part is that the neighbors noticed the changes in my mother's chore schedule, and checked up on her to make sure that everything was ok with my father (he was on bedrest for 7 months). The neighbor was sincere about helping, and later even gave my mother a copy of their schedules and what times they could help, complete with contact information at home and at work for emergencies.

My parents have never had a neighbor they felt they could call if something went wrong, and now they do. Now along the way, they've had people who have made horrific trouble for them, but these neighbors seem great, way better than the neighbors who had been there before my parents' moved in, who kept mainly to themselves with only one or two exceptions.

 

[SGT Rocket]

"No amount of police can enforce civilization where the normal, casual enforcement of it has broken down." Borrowed from the post above.

I have said for many years, it is ridiculous that a society deceive themselves into thinking the police are going to protect them. The police simply clean up the mess and try to determine "who dun it". It is a simple numbers game, there aren't enough police!! We, the general citizenry, have a responsibility to protect ourselves; by making good decisions as to the areas we frequent, by not exposing ourselves as a target (a weak or sick animal for predators to focus on), by carrying a weapon as I do.

I read an interesting piece about how our world today is divided into 3 groups; wolves, sheep, and sheepdogs. The wolves are obviously predators, the sheepdogs are obviously protectors, and the sheep are the general populace. The sheep mill about complacently, safe in their sheer numbers, aware that danger lurks but smug that it "will never happen to them". They fear the wolves, but resent the sheepdogs herding them to safer environs, barking and nipping at their flanks. They have no love for, nor do they appreciate the sheepdogs until the wolves appear. Then, and only then, they twist and turn frantically searching bleating for a sheepdog to come save them, but alas, there are not enough sheepdogs to go around, and some sheep will be lost.

We can argue all day as to the relative sizes of these 3 groups, but the fact remains, it is a pretty accurate representation of our world. It is also open to debate as to how these groups compare in size to years past, but they have always been here and will always be, we must choose to be sheep or sheepdogs!

Or the wolf....


Me, sheepdog.

 

[SGT Rocket]

Sheepdogs

Though there are superheros out there, you don't have to be one to be a sheepdog.

"Over 200 people have committed to fight crime on the streets of America dressed as superheroes.

The superhero community (and we’re not making this up) came about after 9/11 as ordinary people wanted to do something about crime, but didn’t want to join the army or police force.

The number of “reals,” the name these superheroes give themselves has surged recently off the back of Obama’s election victory, according to The Times.

The “reals” register at the World Superhero Registry and must commit to certain rules, including standing for unambiguous and unsponsored good, creating their own Spandex and rubber costumes without infringing Marvel or DC Comics copyrights, and matching them with exotic names.

Reals must shun guns or knives to avoid being arrested as vigilantes, even if their nemeses may be armed.

Some members aren’t being taken seriously though, with Black Owl being placed in a psychiatric ward.

Just before you think this is a complete joke, members are already patrolling streets and dispatching with villains. No, seriously. "

http://www.inquisitr.com/13491/200-people-dressed-as-superheroes-fighting-crime-only-in-america/

 

[SGT Rocket]

Wow, this is actually a much larger phenomenon that I had previously thought.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/06/11/earlyshow/main5080828.shtml

 

[C-dot]

I watched the BBC's Turn Back Time - The High Street again tonight, and I noticed a very definite decline in standards. The program took a forgotten high street in a small English town, and with the help of different tradespeople (butcher, baker, candlestick maker etc.) recreated high street businesses from the 1870's to 1970's, and enlisted the townspeople to shop at those businesses.

Personal service was commonplace until the 1960's era program, when self-serve shops drove the bakeries and general stores out of business. The townspeople eventually abandoned those businesses in favour of the new self-serves because they slashed their prices. Surprisingly enough, though, when the townspeople (of all ages) were asked what they missed most about the old stores, they all said they missed personal service and the relationship they built with the proprietors. The older folks who had lived through the 1930's and 40's said there was a real sense of community in those eras, as well as in the recreations, that was completely lost in later years.

I grew up well after personal service became a memory, but I think it would be a great thing to have again.

 

[Flipped Lid]

I apologize for sending this conversation in a different direction, but I really need to vent. I attended a funeral this afternoon that had probably 250 people in attendance. Not one man in five had on a jacket and many of those who did wore theirs with an open-collar shirt. Although I find this distressing, I wasn't surprised. Formality is nearly a thing of the past. I don't like it and I don't accept it, but I can only control my own behavior. What really left me fuming was that immediately preceding me into the church was a young man who appeared to be in his mid-twenties. He was sporting a three or four-day growth of beard and was dressed in a teeshirt, cargo shorts, and sneakers. I couldn't believe my eyes. It took every ounce of restraint I could muster to keep from saying something to him. I feel like hunting him down and giving him a good throttling. I'm through venting. Please carry on.

 

[_Nightwing]

There is simplicity, simplifying and stereotyping. I don't think stereotyping and simplifying can lead to "clarity" since what is true for people always involves complications, inconsistencies and mystery as to what motivates us. Simplicity is very nice, especially when discussing things, and I generally generalize on here for simplicity's sake. But when it comes to "types" of people and what motivates them I will never claim to be an expert despite having an advanced degree in human psychology.

I didn't think it was wrong for being cynical but for being cynical only while leaving out other variables and viewpoints. You state that models can overlap- yes, they are only variables in a big picture. In the case of this specific framework, I think it was oversimplified and leaves out the issue of nurturing.

It's human nature to want to make the world tidy and simple, so to run with the framework in question, I can see some overbearing sheepdogs wanting to to justify seeing those they patronize as "sheep" while vilifying wolves so that they view their actions and attitudes as noble.

Having said all that, I think you make interesting and well thought out points and I really enjoy spirited dialog. I wouldn't call my response an attack, at least not given my (written word) arsenal.

"Attack" was a poor choice of words and I regret using it. Sorry about that. This whole exchange has also given me a lot of interesting things to continue thinking about, and I would also never claim to be an expert despite also having an advanced degree in human psychology, although since your degree is real you've probably already sussed out that I'm lying about that but whatever.

 

[_Nightwing]

I apologize for sending this conversation in a different direction, but I really need to vent. I attended a funeral this afternoon that had probably 250 people in attendance. Not one man in five had on a jacket and many of those who did wore theirs with an open-collar shirt. Although I find this distressing, I wasn't surprised. Formality is nearly a thing of the past. I don't like it and I don't accept it, but I can only control my own behavior. What really left me fuming was that immediately preceding me into the church was a young man who appeared to be in his mid-twenties. He was sporting a three or four-day growth of beard and was dressed in a teeshirt, cargo shorts, and sneakers. I couldn't believe my eyes. It took every ounce of restraint I could muster to keep from saying something to him. I feel like hunting him down and giving him a good throttling. I'm through venting. Please carry on.

Wow that is awful.

If he'd been eating a bag of potato chips I think you could have claimed temporary insanity.

 

[Pompidou]

I apologize for sending this conversation in a different direction, but I really need to vent. I attended a funeral this afternoon that had probably 250 people in attendance. Not one man in five had on a jacket and many of those who did wore theirs with an open-collar shirt. Although I find this distressing, I wasn't surprised. Formality is nearly a thing of the past. I don't like it and I don't accept it, but I can only control my own behavior. What really left me fuming was that immediately preceding me into the church was a young man who appeared to be in his mid-twenties. He was sporting a three or four-day growth of beard and was dressed in a teeshirt, cargo shorts, and sneakers. I couldn't believe my eyes. It took every ounce of restraint I could muster to keep from saying something to him. I feel like hunting him down and giving him a good throttling. I'm through venting. Please carry on.

It's a good thing you were barely able to contain yourself. Yelling at and strangling people for dressing casually is almost as big of a faux pas as dressing casually itself, the keyword being almost. It might have felt proper at the time, but the next day you'd be mortified at the gossip from well-to-do society.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

"Attack" was a poor choice of words and I regret using it. Sorry about that. This whole exchange has also given me a lot of interesting things to continue thinking about, and I would also never claim to be an expert despite also having an advanced degree in human psychology, although since your degree is real you've probably already sussed out that I'm lying about that but whatever.

Nah, I'm not a lie detector, but I do detect your sarcasm which is too bad if true because I otherwise enjoy this kind of exchange. It would be terribly boring if we all agreed with one another.

 

[SGT Rocket]

Could it be that the person in t-shirt and cut off shorts couldn't afford to dress? Just a thought-- though I admit, not likely given how the "style" of people are today.

 

[Flipped Lid]

That was a bit of an overstatement. I have enough common sense not to make a scene at a funeral and, no, I wouldn't assault someone for dressing inappropriately. I was just expressing the extent of my disgust. Trying to change the culture would be a modern-day version of tilting at windmills and just as productive.

It's a good thing you were barely able to contain yourself. Yelling at and strangling people for dressing casually is almost as big of a faux pas as dressing casually itself, the keyword being almost. It might have felt proper at the time, but the next day you'd be mortified at the gossip from well-to-do society.

 

[Flipped Lid]

Given that the sneakers he was wearing probably cost $75.00, I doubt that was the problem.

Could it be that the person in t-shirt and cut off shorts couldn't afford to dress? Just a thought-- though I admit, not likely given how the "style" of people are today.

 

[SGT Rocket]

Yikes! $75.00!?

 

[PrettySquareGal]

I guess you've never shopped yard sales (or even Goodwill) where you can buy used top dollar sneakers for a few dollars. (I've never bought used sneaks.)

 

[Edward]

I grew up well after personal service became a memory, but I think it would be a great thing to have again.

Things are unlikely to change back in that direction for the mass market, at least. Not unless there's some way to make it more profitable than the current way of doing things, but I'm not seeing it.

Jinkies, though, reading back over this thread I'm so glad it's in an area where non-members can't see it...

 

[C-dot]

Things are unlikely to change back in that direction for the mass market, at least. Not unless there's some way to make it more profitable than the current way of doing things, but I'm not seeing it.

Jinkies, though, reading back over this thread I'm so glad it's in an area where non-members can't see it...

Exactly. People liked it, but at the end of the day it was about saving a buck. Personal service is a novelty.
(Funnily enough, reading this thread and a few others, I was thinking the same thing!)

Flipped Lid, I can understand how you felt, wanting to throttle Mr. Casual. At my grandfather's funeral, one of my cousins came dressed in her going out gear for that evening. To make things worse, she chewed gum and made no attempt to hide her boredom during the viewing. The advantage of it being family was that I was able to say something, and I didn't hold back - She was in tears when I was through with her.

Under-dressing at a funeral isn't just aesthetically inappropriate, it's utterly disrespectful. As in so many situations, common sense should dictate, but as far as I can tell it is still in a coma.