The general decline in standards today

[Miss Golightly]

I really enjoy our new neighborhood - when you can pop over to someone's house and say "hello" or meet them in the backyard for a beer (as my husband does with our next door neighbor, an older gentleman), it just enriches the entire atmosphere of the neighborhood.

Isn't that lovely? To be able to head over for a chat (the beer would always be welcome too!) and for it to be casual and the norm. We live in an apartment at the moment and only know our neighbours to say hello to (they have changed numerous times in the years we've been here) but that's apartment living for you. Next year please God we are going to move into our new house - I really hope we have lovely neighbours and get to know each other - kind of like in This Happy Breed - chats over the garden wall or popping in for a cup of tea/glass of wine (or whiskey in the shed for the guys!)....

 

[angeljenny]

I will talk to most people and I tend to attract old people (pensioners mainly) who start a conversation with me. I will happily chatter away for ages!! I must look safe I guess.

On my way home from work today I passed an old lady working in her garden so I stopped to tell her how lovely her roses were. They were gorgeous - huge blooms with velvety petals. She was so sweet and said I was the first person she had spoken to in two days as she isn't confident or mobile enough to walk far. I think that the older generation has lost something - that caring neighbourhood that they probably grew up in isn't there to support them now that they need it.

 

[C-dot]

I think that the older generation has lost something - that caring neighbourhood that they probably grew up in isn't there to support them now that they need it.

Being a product of my generation, I wouldn't know what that was like. As a child, I remember a neighbour cutting down my parent's roses. Another neighbour let a bad gas leak go for weeks. These days, a kid in my neighbourhood has been letting the air out of people's tires.

As for the older folks, they tend to be curmudgeonly. I parked my car in the street one night and discovered the next morning that someone had called the city. How did I know it was sweet old Mrs. Darby from across the way? She yelled it out to me, loud and proud.

(Isn't there a thread for nutty neighbours around here somewhere?)

 

[AtomicEraTom]

This reminds me, a little old lady with a walker stopped me at the K-Mart today to chat. She was so nice and friendly. She told me that her apartment had been broken into and she had a heart-attack as a result and now plans on moving. I felt so bad for her. She made my day though, she ended the conversation by telling me how tall, dark, and handsome I am lol

I will talk to most people and I tend to attract old people (pensioners mainly) who start a conversation with me. I will happily chatter away for ages!! I must look safe I guess.

I could write you a book, my friend.

(Isn't there a thread for nutty neighbours around here somewhere?)

 

[DanielJones]

With the loss of the front porch and houses having large setbacks from the property line there is no insentive for neighbors to get out front and be neighborly. No chance to sit out there on a summer evening, saying hello to your neighbors and having a general chat. We tend to hole up in our houses or are confined to our back yards to sit and relax. You don't get to see much from there. Then again most folks don't trust their neighbors either. They tend to keep them at a good distance to keep an eye on them. It was a rare thing to see my neighbors out and about in their yards in my old neighborhood. We'd do our regular yard work and if you did see your neighbors, it was between their front door and their vehicle, just to drive away. We only got to know the neighbors on either side of us in the five years that we lived there. Sad really.
What I wanted to do with that house, but couldn't afford to, was create a front patio that we could go out and enjoy. Sit out front and greet the neighbors that were walking their dogs maybe. Would have been nice.

Cheers!

Dan

 

[Gregg Axley]

Great post Dan.
One of my neighbors in on my FB page. LOL That's kinda on the front porch.
It seems as if people today don't want to be bothered by others problems.
I have a neighbor like that. It's more of an annoyance to see me and my family out because my girls tend to be loud at times. Well they have tails and lots of hair, that's their job is to alert me to things.
I think you hit the nail on the head Dan, we get too busy today to notice when something isn't right around us, or we get apathetic to things.
Together we stand, divided we fall.....

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

I think you hit the nail on the head Dan, we get too busy today to notice when something isn't right around us, or we get apathetic to things.
Together we stand, divided we fall.....

More and more I seem to hear these macabre stories in the news about people found dead in their homes months or even years after they died. And because of Direct Deposit (of Social Security) and Automatic Bill Pay the electricity was never shut off so nobody noticed anything amiss. And last year or the year before in L.A. a man was shot and killed on the balcony of his apartment. His body lay there for several days because the neighbors thought it was just a Halloween decoration!

 

[LizzieMaine]

With the loss of the front porch and houses having large setbacks from the property line there is no insentive for neighbors to get out front and be neighborly.

This is a very very good point. The advent of suburbia has been a huge factor in changing the way people view their neighbors -- when your front door is only eight feet from the sidewalk, as in many older towns and cities, you're thrown into contact with your neighbors whether you want to be or not. When houses are very close together, it's hard *not* to know your neighbors -- when you can smell their food cooking and hear their kids crying and they can do the same with yours, it leads to a certain intimacy that you don't find when everybody stays on their own carefully-laid-out subdivision lot and instead of neighbors you have a "Homeowners Association" to tell you how to paint your house and how to cut your grass.

Air conditioning is another factor, I think. When people had front porches or stoops, they sat on them because they didn't have air conditioners, and sitting outside in the evening was the only way to stay cool. Nowadays, people shut themselves inside and stay there, because it's more comfortable.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

As a child, I remember a neighbour cutting down my parent's roses. Another neighbour let a bad gas leak go for weeks. These days, a kid in my neighbourhood has been letting the air out of people's tires.

The kids of one of my neighbors across the street used to throw parties and invite their friends from their old neighborhood. On two occasions after these parties I found graffiti on my wall. And on trash pick up day these same neighbors will park their vehicles along the side of my house (I live on a corner) which means I have to set the trash bins out some distance from the gate. It seems that they only do this on trash day even though there's plenty of room in front of their house.

 

[sheeplady]

When houses are very close together, it's hard *not* to know your neighbors -- when you can smell their food cooking and hear their kids crying and they can do the same with yours, it leads to a certain intimacy that you don't find when everybody stays on their own carefully-laid-out subdivision lot and instead of neighbors you have a "Homeowners Association" to tell you how to paint your house and how to cut your grass.

Air conditioning is another factor, I think. When people had front porches or stoops, they sat on them because they didn't have air conditioners, and sitting outside in the evening was the only way to stay cool. Nowadays, people shut themselves inside and stay there, because it's more comfortable.

Ugh. Homeowners associations. It's like magnifying the worst part of nosy neighbors who make trouble. A good portion of these people need to calm down and stop getting their undershorts in a twist because you have a clothesline. I hope I never have to live in a place with a HA, I think they are 90% evil. (The worst example being a woman who lost her job and canceled her electric so she could keep paying her mortgage. Her HA evicted her for not having electricity. Nice neighbors. )

In the city where I live, people still hang out on their front porch stoops in the poorer areas. I don't think they have air conditioning, which is a primary motivator. We don't have a porch on our house, it's the one thing I would really like to have (we don't have air conditioning either). I grew up in a house with a wraparound porch around half the house- there is nothing better than a porch. Decks are much less useful, but they are not taxed like porches are, so people build decks.

 

[AtomicEraTom]

We are developing a sub-division. Our lawyer wanted us to put in a bunch of rules and covenants and really regulate it, much like a home-owners association. We said absolutely not. He told us the township said we had to have some sort of rules. So we came up with some really basic stuff. No campers over a certain size parked year round, is one that comes to mind. Also no trailers, and houses must have a porch, or a gable to break up the roof-line.

 

[_Nightwing]

The modern culture, drug culture, and lack of parenting, and powerless teachers are the big issues, if you ask me.

Modern culture in general is just lousy, everyone is looking out for number one, which is fine to a point, but not to the point of being completely self-centered. The media shows that it's okay to be "16 and pregnant" or to be defiant to your parents, to the police, or any other authority you can think of. Not to mention the way that sex, alcohol, and illegal drugs are glorified as necessities to any good party.

Agree one hundred percent. Rather than living their lives according to a rational self-interest, people are swept up in an irrational self-interest of nice feelings, of the short term, and of sending their emotional pendulum on the next upswing. It's a self-centeredness that is so incredibly centered as to ignore many of its own "edges," causing their own lives and the society that they have to live in to be destroyed, well in their own lifetime at that.

More and more I seem to hear these macabre stories in the news about people found dead in their homes months or even years after they died. And because of Direct Deposit (of Social Security) and Automatic Bill Pay the electricity was never shut off so nobody noticed anything amiss. And last year or the year before in L.A. a man was shot and killed on the balcony of his apartment. His body lay there for several days because the neighbors thought it was just a Halloween decoration!

"17 million people. This is got to be the fifth biggest economy in the world and nobody knows each other. I read about this guy who gets on the MTA here, dies. Six hours he's riding the subway before anybody notices his corpse doing laps around L.A., people on and off sitting next to him. Nobody notices."

Vincent, in Michael Mann's modern film noir Collateral. It's referenced again in the last lines of the film, but I won't spoil it for anyone that hasn't seen.

This is a very very good point. The advent of suburbia has been a huge factor in changing the way people view their neighbors -- when your front door is only eight feet from the sidewalk, as in many older towns and cities, you're thrown into contact with your neighbors whether you want to be or not. When houses are very close together, it's hard *not* to know your neighbors -- when you can smell their food cooking and hear their kids crying and they can do the same with yours, it leads to a certain intimacy that you don't find when everybody stays on their own carefully-laid-out subdivision lot and instead of neighbors you have a "Homeowners Association" to tell you how to paint your house and how to cut your grass.

Air conditioning is another factor, I think. When people had front porches or stoops, they sat on them because they didn't have air conditioners, and sitting outside in the evening was the only way to stay cool. Nowadays, people shut themselves inside and stay there, because it's more comfortable.

One of the few contributors that I enjoyed in contrast to the sea of modern crap that I encountered during my geography studies was Jane Jacobs. I'd guess that you're probably familiar with her already but, for everyone to enjoy, here's her chapter on city sidewalks from 1961. The simplicity and common sense of her approach was immediately appealing to me, and stands apart from so much other modern academic writing. And while you'd think it was obvious what she was saying, every day I encounter new areas of town here in Charlotte where people actually paid planners and architects good money to avoid the same problems to which Jacobs refers, and yet who attempt to do so by taking the absolute opposite approach. She addresses crime, fear, suburbs, the police, strangers, and public and private space - it's a really great read even for those not typically interested in the subject:

http://petermoskos.com/readings/Jacobs_1961.pdf

Her contention is simple - to have eyes on the street, to keep sidewalks busy, and to have divisions between public and private space. Bascially to create and preserve that "certain intimacy" which you mention, with the "certain" part made clear by the public/private divisions that allow a sharing of space to be casual and relaxed. And how to achieve this? As you say, to have houses closer together so that people can watch out for one another and share space, to be eight feet from the sidewalks and facing the sidewalks as with porches so that there are eyes on the street, to have businesses sprinkled in with houses in a messy fashion so that there are concrete reasons for keeping the sidewalks busy and thus safe - busy sidewalks aren't dangerous, empty sidewalks are dangerous. It's common sense yet brilliant stuff, because just look at what people are doing today. That's how you create a real, unforced community that doesn't need a contrived homeowner's association, and communities are one solid way to prevent the general decline in standards today, to keep this all on topic.

Today I walk around my apartment complex and around Charlotte and all I see are living spaces separated from working spaces and separated from shopping spaces, so that no-one is using the sidewalks and I'm a singled-out prey to whatever loonies (loonies other than me) are stumbling through the urban jungle. As Jacobs writes, you either struggle on with the consequences or take refuge in a vehicle like you're on a safari. I see big box grocery stores, which already have no windows, with huge empty parking lots and no eyes on the street at all, and then either professional police or security trying to make up the slack ("No amount of police can enforce civilization where the normal, casual enforcement of it has broken down.") I see sprawled-out development with those "nothing-at-all" spaces she refers to, neither clearly public or private, and completely unwatched, where of course all kinds of crazies have collected. I see stores, even Walmart Supercenters, that reduce their operating hours in an effort to combat crime. Haahaha. Then I have to take my run or wait to catch my bus infront of an even more unwatched, unused, and dangerous closed store. And so it goes on.

 

[scooter]

"No amount of police can enforce civilization where the normal, casual enforcement of it has broken down." Borrowed from the post above.

I have said for many years, it is ridiculous that a society deceive themselves into thinking the police are going to protect them. The police simply clean up the mess and try to determine "who dun it". It is a simple numbers game, there aren't enough police!! We, the general citizenry, have a responsibility to protect ourselves; by making good decisions as to the areas we frequent, by not exposing ourselves as a target (a weak or sick animal for predators to focus on), by carrying a weapon as I do.

I read an interesting piece about how our world today is divided into 3 groups; wolves, sheep, and sheepdogs. The wolves are obviously predators, the sheepdogs are obviously protectors, and the sheep are the general populace. The sheep mill about complacently, safe in their sheer numbers, aware that danger lurks but smug that it "will never happen to them". They fear the wolves, but resent the sheepdogs herding them to safer environs, barking and nipping at their flanks. They have no love for, nor do they appreciate the sheepdogs until the wolves appear. Then, and only then, they twist and turn frantically searching bleating for a sheepdog to come save them, but alas, there are not enough sheepdogs to go around, and some sheep will be lost.

We can argue all day as to the relative sizes of these 3 groups, but the fact remains, it is a pretty accurate representation of our world. It is also open to debate as to how these groups compare in size to years past, but they have always been here and will always be, we must choose to be sheep or sheepdogs!

 

[_Nightwing]

Great post, and I've read that analogy before. I try to be the sheepdog and I've definitely been resented for it. Just last night I encountered a set of keys left in an apartment door after midnight, and some people passed by them and did nothing at all. It could be their keys one day, in their apartment door after midnight. I pushed them under the door so that they were just reachable if you knew they were there, and left a note explaining what I'd done and tucked that by the keyhole. Maybe the guy will be grateful later, maybe he'll just ignore it, but it wouldn't surprise me if he got really angry about it and told me to mind my own business. Stuff like happens to me all the time.

I'm not a violent person at all, but I'm not a wait-for-an-expert-let-the-police-handle-it person either. I hate the "expert" society that we're becoming. You are all experts. You can solve your problems. You are all freethinking individuals with many resources, even if you're not unique and special snowflakes, as Palahniuk would say, and you can make a big difference just by yourself. Of course, a better sheep pen is a good idea too and that's essentially what Jacobs is suggesting in her planning ideas.

 

[angeljenny]

Being a product of my generation, I wouldn't know what that was like. As a child, I remember a neighbour cutting down my parent's roses. Another neighbour let a bad gas leak go for weeks. These days, a kid in my neighbourhood has been letting the air out of people's tires.

As for the older folks, they tend to be curmudgeonly. I parked my car in the street one night and discovered the next morning that someone had called the city. How did I know it was sweet old Mrs. Darby from across the way? She yelled it out to me, loud and proud.

(Isn't there a thread for nutty neighbours around here somewhere?)

I don't know what it is like either. I used to listen to my Gran saying that neighbours used to rally round each other in times of need and everyone on the street knew everyone else. When I was young I used to walk to the shops with my Gran and it seemed to take hours as she knew everyone and people would stop and make the time to speak to each other.

I quite like my street - I have lived here for 15 years now and it was my Gran and Grandad's house before that. The next door neighbours aren't great (drum set, karaoke machine, drunken parties, threatening behaviour) but the older people on the street are nice.

People seem to be in their own little bubble now - so long as it suits them it is fine never mind if it hurts others. I have never been one of those people to just walk by - I tend to get involved and not to think before I act. I guess I just care about people even the ones I don't know.

 

[Pompidou]

My dream home is a log cabin with enough woodland acreage that I can't see or hear my neighbors. I want to be able to do whatever I want without having to compromise. I want to be close enough to my friends to stop by conveniently by car, but far enough from everyone else so that it's not too convenient to stop by uninvited. That said, where I live now is about as great as it can get neighbor-wise. It really is one of those post war, cookie-cutter suburban neighborhoods. We have best friend level neighbors on one side, your mandatory peeping tom nosey neighbors on the other, a crazy old "get off my lawn" lady who doesn't like anyone towards the end of the block, and "dem dern kids" up the street.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

I read an interesting piece about how our world today is divided into 3 groups; wolves, sheep, and sheepdogs. The wolves are obviously predators, the sheepdogs are obviously protectors, and the sheep are the general populace. The sheep mill about complacently, safe in their sheer numbers, aware that danger lurks but smug that it "will never happen to them". They fear the wolves, but resent the sheepdogs herding them to safer environs, barking and nipping at their flanks. They have no love for, nor do they appreciate the sheepdogs until the wolves appear. Then, and only then, they twist and turn frantically searching bleating for a sheepdog to come save them, but alas, there are not enough sheepdogs to go around, and some sheep will be lost.

We can argue all day as to the relative sizes of these 3 groups, but the fact remains, it is a pretty accurate representation of our world. It is also open to debate as to how these groups compare in size to years past, but they have always been here and will always be, we must choose to be sheep or sheepdogs!

Nah, I think it's an accurate representation of a very bitter and paranoid view of the world. Sure there's danger, and there are those who act like ostriches and others like salivating wolves. Some pack heat and others rely on 911. But this quote leaves out the people who make life worth protecting outside of a police state. There are those who make pies for their neighbors, or drop by to see how they are doing, or offer them candles and flashlights in a blackout. There are others who loan tools or a hand with unexpected home improvement projects. My neighborhood rallied together to fight the razing of local woods to build a giant parking lot and office building and we won. Additionally, we all have some sheep/sheepdog/wolf in us. It just ain't that black and white.

 

[kamikat]

I think when push comes to shove, our general human nature comes out when we need it most. I've lived on my block for 12 years. My husband and I bought this house from my dad. I remember what it was like to grow up here, knowing everybody, all the kids playing together, all the parents getting along, ect. Now, while I've met everyone, I don't really know anyone. However, in the 12 years since I've lived here as an adult, we've had 9/11 (we're a DC suburb and had many Pentagon employees at the time), a couple blizzards and a major hurricane. Each time one of those disasters come up, all the neighbors come out into the street and offer help or solace to anyone who needs it.

 

[Gregg Axley]

Sounds like a nice place Kamikat.
We don't get blizzards, just windstorms.
I remember more participation when I was a kid, but people around here make more of an effort than they used to. Maybe they miss the old days too.

 

[_Nightwing]

But this quote leaves out the people who make life worth protecting outside of a police state. There are those who make pies for their neighbors, or drop by to see how they are doing, or offer them candles and flashlights in a blackout. There are others who loan tools or a hand with unexpected home improvement projects. My neighborhood rallied together to fight the razing of local woods to build a giant parking lot and office building and we won.

Pretty sure those people fall into the sheepdog camp. Offering the protection of candles and flashlights? Yeah, those are the sheepdogs all right. The general populace doesn't even have storm supplies. They're the ones I see rushing Walmart during the storm in order to get them, and complaining to security that some people are taking too much of one thing and that they have to help them. And it's great that your neighborhood rallied together, but I doubt that everyone just walked out of their houses the day that they found out about the plan to kill the woods, and then met up together simultaneously in the street. Some of you had to be organizing, acting as the protectors you might say.

Scooter's bit about not being appreciative and the other bit about frantically bleating did come off cynical, but I think he has certain specific situations in mind there, I don't think the general conception is paranoid or cynical at all. I picture a happy little farm, with a lot of peaceful inhabitants enjoying the sun and going about their grass-eating and commenting on the meadow's various goings-on. It's a nice place, and nice people. Good times, good food, everyone has a lot of nice wool suits. And remember, in this analogy the wolves are both fewest and on the edge of society - which isn't cynical at all. And then the sheepdogs, that just means there's good guys, some white hats to ride in and save the day, in however small a manner, with those candles and pies we're talking about.

Additionally, we all have some sheep/sheepdog/wolf in us. It just ain't that black and white.

Now I totally agree with that. I think you just improved our understanding of the analogy though. Complicated it. Anyone can become a sheepdog, it's like that movie Babe. XD But really, I think there are more of them in society at different times in history and right now we're probably lacking, but imagine how great it would be if everyone tried to be one. That would be one way to stop those declining standards.

As simplicity can provide a wonderful clarity, I don't think a framework should be attacked just for being simple. For being wrong, yes, but I don't think this analogy is wrong and if it is then it's certainly not wrong because it's cynical. It also doesn't have to be the only model of the world. Others are allowed to overlap it.