The Ernest Hemingway Thread

[Martinis at 8]

...That was the ugly side of his personality [bullfighting]...The funny thing is that at the end of his life he was so kind to animals (read all about his cats in "Finca Vigia", Cuba)...

The "ugly" quip is but an opinion.

I'm not sure having cats and liking bullfighting are mutually exclusive. It's not like Hemingway evolved away from bullfighting and then towards cats. Your note implies (or I infer from it) that aficionados of bullfighting hate animals and that Hemingway evolved to some higher plane as evidence by his liking of cats later in life. Most I have met that go to bullfights love animals. In fact most hunters do too.

One of my two cats is laying on my desk here next to my laptop as I write this note, and I like bullfighting. In fact, we even have bloodless bullfighting in one of our dusty South Texas towns near the border. But for the real stuff, one has to cross the border. With the pre-Lenten festivities about to start in Mexico, there will be plenty of bullfighting going on with some world class matadors from all over the world converging in Mexico. So, I will probably get on my motorcycle and make another crossing. Wanna go?

 

[Martinis at 8]

...The Sun Also Rises is symbolic of Ernest Hemingway's seeming obsession with masculinity and machismo, however a subtler symbolic meaning can be gleaned from the vivid depictions of bullfighting in the novel. For example, the piercing dialogue and resulting momentary revealing glimpses of characters in the novel can be viewed as characters feinting about each other in an open arena. As the matador of dialogue, Hemingway masterfully handles his cape of words with true finesse. Viewed from this perspective, Hemingway's bullfight is a metaphor for the intricate but often choreographed relationships between men and women.

For example, the interesting thing about Jake and Brett's relationship is that it is completely frustrating to both of them, and yet they seem unable to divorce themselves from one another.

The story is told from the perspective of Jake Barnes, a somewhat disillusioned American expatriate writer with an unfortunate war injury that has rendered him impotent. Jake is in love with Brett, a rich, rather promiscuous woman. The interesting thing about Jake and Brett's relationship is that it is completely frustrating to both of them, and yet they seem unable to divorce themselves from one another.

But as much as we might want for these two aficionados of repartee to finally find love together, our hopes are gored when the real matador steps into the arena. Pedro Romero.

Romero is the very model of manhood within the novel. He is controlled, passionate, precise, and understands the art of subterfuge.

And finally, the language Hemingway employs to describe Romero’s bullfighting is almost always sexual, and his killing of the bull takes the form of a seduction. This symbolic equation of sex and violence further links sexuality to danger and destruction. It is important to note that the distinctions between these interpretations are not hard and fast. Rather, levels of meaning in The Sun Also Rises flow together and complement one another.

LMAO! Can anybody read a novel without doing the psychoanalysis of the "deeper" meaning? lol

However, Pedro Romero comes across to me as an effete snob. He is by no means a Manolete of a bullfighter. If you want to tag anyone as a man, it is Cohn.

(yes, I already know you are secure with your masculinity and your feminine side from your other posts, blah-blah-blah, so spare us a repeat of the litany )

Now, how about this for a synopsis of the story? A bunch of unemployed writers who do nothing real in life romp around France and Spain doing nothing - because that's what they do. One of them, Brett, is not only a tease, but also a whore. Cohn, who thinks this might be a fun crowd to hang with, eventually gets fed up with them, kicks a few of their butts and leaves. Moral of the story: Don't waste your time with losers. Move on quickly.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

LMAO! Can anybody read a novel without doing the psychoanalysis of the "deeper" meaning? lol

However, Pedro Romero comes across to me as an effete snob. He is by no means a Manolete of a bullfighter. If you want to tag anyone as a man, it is Cohn.

(yes, I already know you are secure with your masculinity and your feminine side from your other posts, blah-blah-blah, so spare us a repeat of the litany )

Now, how about this for a synopsis of the story? A bunch of unemployed writers who do nothing real in life romp around France and Spain doing nothing - because that's what they do. One of them, Brett, is not only a tease, but also a whore. Cohn, who thinks this might be a fun crowd to hang with, eventually gets fed up with them, kicks a few of their butts and leaves. Moral of the story: Don't waste your time with losers. Move on quickly.

Wow you remember me, I must have had some effect upon you. I do not even know who you are. And clearly you have some beef with me, I suggest you tell someone who cares. So here I will take your advice and not spend time on a wasteful endeavor.

I enjoy Hemingway, his life and any meaningful discussion regarding that.

Now on to the substance of your discussion. Your's is certainty a valid means to interpret the material at hand. I find Hemingway to have had a fascinating mind and wealth of experience. A storied fellow, Hemingway's time in Paris as a member of The Lost Generation and as an ambulance driver during WWI influenced my own perspective about life without which I would never have attempted some of the things that I had.

If find that Hemingway is a multifaceted, complex individual, he is worthy of my time and effort in viewing him from different aspects including, but, not limited to the symbolism contained in his books. How could I not, it seems to me every word he writes explodes with meaning rather than pulp. He is one of the few writers and personalities that compel me to look beyond the written word.

And for some they are just words..[huh]

 

[Martinis at 8]

[1] Wow you remember me, I must have had some effect upon you.

[2] So here I will take your advice and not spend time on a wasteful endeavor.

[3] I enjoy Hemingway, his life and any meaningful discussion regarding that.

[1] Lol! lol Even more funny.

[2] Glad to hear it. And that's probably the only lesson you should infer from The Sun Also Rises.

[3] Well at least you read his books. Lots of posers running about saying, "Papa this and Papa that" without ever having read any of his tripe.

 

[Martinis at 8]

...Now on to the substance of your discussion. Your's is certainty a valid means to interpret the material at hand. I find Hemingway to have had a fascinating mind and wealth of experience. A storied fellow, Hemingway's time in Paris as a member of The Lost Generation and as an ambulance driver during WWI influenced my own perspective about life without which I would never have attempted some of the things that I had.

If find that Hemingway is a multifaceted, complex individual, he is worthy of my time and effort in viewing him from different aspects including, but, not limited to the symbolism contained in his books. How could I not, it seems to me every word he writes explodes with meaning rather than pulp. He is one of the few writers and personalities that compel me to look beyond the written word.

And for some they are just words..[huh]

Well you have edited your post, so here is a further reply to the topic.

He is a storied fellow, but much of the legend around him is contrived, IMO. There is too much inference made about the author by readers, same with Kerouac. My opinion is that this is because he committed suicide and so the decrypting of Hem's actions is sought by those who regard themselves as intellectuals. It's a discussion exercise worthy of any wine & cheese gathering at your local art gallery

I don't see how Hemingway has influenced you in life by his examples of being an ambulance driver in WW1 or living with the freak-a-zoids in Paris, or anything else for that matter. I mean dude, didn't you tell us you are an accountant? lol.................Ahem, sorry

Okay, but in all fairness, there are a few things about him personally that I like. [1] The guy loved to travel, so do I. [2] He enjoys the riskier sports in life, so do I. [3] He's not completely crass and so enjoys some of the finer things in life like a good cigar, etc., so do I. [4] It appears he was a skirt-chaser, and HadleyH has not accepted my invitation to go see bullfights in Mexico. Three out of four ain't bad!

His novels I would certainly not put in the category of greatness. They certainly would not make it into any Great Books programs IMO. Not sure if St. John's has them in their curriculum now or not.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

Well you have edited your post, so here is a further reply to the topic.

He is a storied fellow, but much of the legend around him is contrived, IMO. There is too much inference made about the author by readers, same with Kerouac. My opinion is that this is because he committed suicide and so the decrypting of Hem's actions is sought by those who regard themselves as intellectuals. It's a discussion exercise worthy of any wine & cheese gathering at your local art gallery

I don't see how Hemingway has influenced you in life by his examples of being an ambulance driver in WW1 or living with the freak-a-zoids in Paris, or anything else for that matter. I mean dude, didn't you tell us you are an accountant? lol.................Ahem, sorry

Okay, but in all fairness, there are a few things about him personally that I like. [1] The guy loved to travel, so do I. [2] He enjoys the riskier sports in life, so do I. [3] He's not completely crass and so enjoys some of the finer things in life like a good cigar, etc., so do I. [4] It appears he was a skirt-chaser, and HadleyH has not accepted my invitation to go see bullfights in Mexico. Three out of four ain't bad!

His novels I would certainly not put in the category of greatness. They certainly would not make it into any Great Books programs IMO. Not sure if St. John's has them in their curriculum now or not.

As the cat in the picture with Hemingway is very content being silent as to things never to be discussed but has apparently lived a full life; I am as well...

The "freak-a-zoids in Paris" you cite are considered as the following describes:

The "Lost Generation" is a term used to characterize a general motif of disillusionment of American literary notables who lived in Europe, most notably Paris, after the First World War. Figures identified with the "Lost Generation" included authors and artists such as Ernest Hemingway, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Ezra Pound, Sherwood Anderson, Waldo Peirce, John Dos Passos, John Steinbeck, and Cole Porter.

Their contributions to society, the arts and future generations is still being discovered.

 

[Martinis at 8]

...The "freak-a-zoids in Paris" you cite are considered as the following describes:

The "Lost Generation" is a term used to characterize a general motif of disillusionment of American literary notables who lived in Europe, most notably Paris, after the First World War. Figures identified with the "Lost Generation" included authors and artists such as Ernest Hemingway, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Ezra Pound, Sherwood Anderson, Waldo Peirce, John Dos Passos, John Steinbeck, and Cole Porter.

Their contributions to society, the arts and future generations is still being discovered.

Uh, you left out the head freak-a-zoid of them all: Gertrude Stein. Now I am wondering if you have really read Hemingway. She was the most prominent figure in A Moveable Feast.

I'm not sure Steinbeck, FSF, or CP would want to be included in that bunch. Now here's your test. Who coined the term The Lost Generation? Don't get it confused with the TV show named Lost lol

See, I can be a Hemingway snob too. Please invite me to your next wine & cheese party at your local art gallery lol I'll really impress your friends.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

Uh, you left out the head freak-a-zoid of them all: Gertrude Stein. Now I am wondering if you have really read Hemingway. She was the most prominent figure in A Moveable Feast.

I'm not sure Steinbeck, FSF, or CP would want to be included in that bunch. Now here's your test. Who coined the term The Lost Generation? Don't get it confused with the TV show named Lost lol

See, I can be a Hemingway snob too. Please invite me to your next wine & cheese party at local art gallery lol

If you read my post I said included. That means there can be additions.

I did not think it necessary to include the following, but, since you asked. The term was popularized and often credited to author and poet Gertrude Stein. Stein supposedly heard her French garage owner speak of his young auto mechanics, and their poor repair skills, as "une génération perdue."

The phrase is attributed to Gertrude Stein, then popularized by Ernest Hemingway in the epigraph to his novel The Sun Also Rises and his memoir A Moveable Feast. In the latter he explained "I tried to balance Miss Stein's quotation from the garage owner with one from Ecclesiastes." (A few lines later, recalling the risks and losses of the war, he adds: "I thought of Miss Stein and Sherwood Anderson and egotism and mental laziness versus discipline and I thought 'who is calling who a lost generation?'"

 

[Martinis at 8]

If you read my post I said included. That means there can be additions.

I did not think it necessary to include the following, but, since you asked. The term was popularized and often credited to author and poet Gertrude Stein. Stein supposedly heard her French garage owner speak of his young auto mechanics, and their poor repair skills, as "une génération perdue."

The phrase is attributed to Gertrude Stein, then popularized by Ernest Hemingway in the epigraph to his novel The Sun Also Rises and his memoir A Moveable Feast. In the latter he explained "I tried to balance Miss Stein's quotation from the garage owner with one from Ecclesiastes." (A few lines later, recalling the risks and losses of the war, he adds: "I thought of Miss Stein and Sherwood Anderson and egotism and mental laziness versus discipline and I thought 'who is calling who a lost generation?'"

You passed! Now go thank Wiki lol

 

[Carlisle Blues]

You passed! Now go thank Wiki lol

One of the more pious statements I encounter is the use of information that while accurate is somehow lessened due to it's popular source. I use what is available, accurate and expedient.

Therefore I have more time to enjoy those things in life such a good Hemingway read, discussions and perspectives of others. I am not too proud to say I am a little too busy to reinvent the wheel.

 

[Martinis at 8]

...I am not too proud to say I am a little too busy to reinvent the wheel.

Dude, did you read A Moveable Feast or not? I think you just outed yourself as Papa Poser lol

 

[Carlisle Blues]

^^^

End of discussion I have imparted relevant substantive information regarding material in this thread that you requested...beyond that I can do no more... Yet you continue with your argumentum ad hominem to which I can only sigh and say it takes all kinds...[huh]

 

[Martinis at 8]

Another poser busted! lol

 

[HadleyH]

Most I have met that go to bullfights love animals. In fact most hunters do too.

I understand what you are saying, but that is a strange sort of love in my opinion .... i could never be like that; you love or you dont love and if you love animals, how can you see them suffer?

Anyway, back to Hem. Yes he did loved animals ,in his own fashion, apart from his many cats in Finca Vigia( cats with 6 toes as everybody knows ) he had a dog called Black Dog ..." who literally slept on his feet while he wrote, and when Black Dog was killed with rifle butts by Batista's men , Hemingway was devastated".


with his beloved Black Dog

 

[Carlisle Blues]

Another poser busted! lol

fftopic: I have reread your posts and I will say this. There are those of us who do not need to boost their own sense of self, self importance or exhibit narcissism by bragging or wearing their version of machismo on their sleeve. Suffice it to say I looked at your list and you would be envious beyond words regarding my life experiences. And that is one of the major lessons I have learned from Hemingway.

So ride your cycle, while I climb mountains, dream your dream while I sit in my chair with a little smile and the wonderful memories of what had actually happened. I am talking situations regarding people lives. To name one I would be happy as I once informed you to discuss this PM ....This thread is one of the best at The Fedora Lounge there is no place for your personal agenda. Take me up on my offer. Now I remember you, the moderators had to delete your diatribes the last time you did this.

Poser? I am interpreting that as your term for impostor. Further, while I do not recognize you as any authority whatsoever, my goal is to keep this thread peaceful while fostering a free exchange of information and ideas. Quite frankly I find your personal attacks annoying, boorish and disruptive. An impostor I am not, those Loungers I have had the pleasure of meeting and spending significant time with including Widebrim would be happy to confirm that....

Incidentally, I am not an accountant.

 

[Harp]

What life is, you who hold it in your hands...
You let it flow from you, you let it flow,
And youth is cruel, and has no remorse
And smiles at situations which it cannot see.

Yet with these April sunsets, that somehow recall
My buried life, and Paris in the Spring,
I feel immeasurably at peace, and find the world
To be wonderful and youthful, after all.

Ts Eliot

From Eliot's Portrait of a Lady

 

[Carlisle Blues]

Most I have met that go to bullfights love animals.

Your proposition does not fit within the following criteria which has been generally accepted for eons.

Greek words for love: affection, friendship, eros, and charity.

Affection for the bull by killing it?

Friendship to the bull by killing it?

Eros regarding the bull?

Charity for the process by which the bull is put to death?

Perhaps in a sub-sector of society the definitions of love vary, but, for the general populace your thesis is fallacious.

Old Man and the Sea

"You did not kill the fish only to keep alive and to sell for food, he thought. You killed him for pride and because you are a fisherman. You loved him when he was alive and you loved him after. If you love him, it is not a sin to kill him. Or is it more?" Page 105

Hemingway himself had questions himself regarding the reasons killing.That speaks for itself. Clearly, there is a moral quandary suffered.

In Spain it is clearly considered a sport. I am sure those that attend the sporting event, much like Hemingway, "loved" the sport rather than the animal.

Your proposition is questionable at best and wholly without merit.

In 1952, LIFE sent legendary photographer Alfred Eisenstaedt to Cuba to shoot author Ernest Hemingway. The magazine needed photos to run alongside a new novella that would run in LIFE before it was published in book format. That book was “The Old Man and the Sea,”

 

[Martinis at 8]

^^^

End of discussion...

Lol! lol I guess not. You keep rambling on with different replies to me and have even re-edited several of your posts. Guess I got you all confused and you've gone all heady-explody regarding the topic lol

 

[Widebrim]

Poser? I am interpreting that as your term for impostor. Further, while I do not recognize you as any authority whatsoever, my goal is to keep this thread peaceful while fostering a free exchange of information and ideas. Quite frankly I find your personal attacks annoying, boorish and disruptive. An impostor I am not, those Loungers I have had the pleasure of meeting and spending significant time with including Widebrim would be happy to confirm that....
Incidentally, I am not an accountant.

And I do confirm it, Chris! Those who make accusations/conclusions based on speculation/prejudice are either deluded and/or dishonest.

Widebrim

 

[Carlisle Blues]

And I do confirm it, Chris! Those who make accusations/conclusions based on speculation/prejudice are either deluded and/or dishonest.

Widebrim

Thanks you Lee....you know I enjoy coming here and discussing many different topics. Yet none of them include the actual person who posts.

I place principles over personalities in my daily activities and here at The Fedora Lounge and in that way we have a fluid manner in which to share our views, experiences and expand our horizons.

This particular instance, however bothersome, is reminiscent of that fellow we encountered on our way to meet another Lounger at the train station (if you know what I mean.. ) That is when I knew you were the type of fellow that I consider a gentlemen. Thanks for having my back.