The Bowler or Derby Hat

[carter]

Continued from Post #140

Stetson Standard Quality Derby

Stetson Nutria Fur Derby

Continued in next post...

 

[carter]

Continued from post #141

Knox Finest Quality Derby

 

[Brad Bowers]

Nice collection, carter!

Is the Knapp Felt Derby a belled, English-style crown, or is it just a illusion of the camera?

Any ideas on the age? I'm guessing maybe '30s, from what I can see.

Brad

 

[Tiller]

I wish I had a vintage Bowler, but 7 1/2's seem to be rare for that era.:eusa_doh: I don't know how much of an opportunity I'd have to wear one anyways, but none the less I like the look of em.

 

[Wolfmanjack]

Back in the day, these hats varied a good deal in the height of the crown. Here is Andrew Carnegie wearing a bowler/derby with a higher crown:

I have a full beard like Carnegie (the only point on which we are similar) and a higher crown provides a better balance.

Nowadays, these are very hard to come by.

 

[GWD]

Carter your collection is amazing! You said the first hat is a Bowler and the rest are Derbies (is that spelling right?) What is the difference? Just crown height?

 

[Lefty]

There's no difference.

Here's another one of my "cool thing I learned from Debbie Henderson's Hat Talk" stories:

A derby is a bowler is a coke, depending upon where you are. The story, whether it's true or not, goes that Lord Coke needed a better form of topper for his men, who spent much of their time chasing poacher's off of Coke's land. The top hats got knocked off and were no defense for projectiles hurled by the poachers. Coke went to John Lock, the famous hatter whose business continues to this day, and asked Lock to design a suitable hat for the purpose. Lock bought his raw bodies from the Bowler brothers. He designed a short crowned, iron clad (shellac filled) hat. One myth says that Coke stood on the hat to test its strength. Coke liked what he saw, and a style was born.

On one side of the Thames, the hat was known as the Coke (Lock tradition dictated that a hat was named for he who commissioned it), while on the other, it was the Bowler. It's difficult to say why the hat is called a derby in the US, as that name is traced to the Early of Derby (which is pronounced Dar-bee).

With a shellac shortage in WWI and the growing acceptance of soft felt hats, bowlers themselves became softer hats. However, just as the every day top hat had transformed into a formal hat, the cultural significance of the bowler transformed. Within a few decades, the hard bowler became a sign of old sophistication and enjoyed a resurgence when President Eisenhower wore one.

All of this leads to the conclusion that the man in the photo is hardly a dandy. As well tailored as he may be, his hat indicates that he's dressed to chase away the thugs who have been poaching on the Lord's estate.

Brad filled in the missing part:

The following quote has been attributed to John Cavanagh. If anyone would know the story from Knapp, it would be Cavanagh, who was the best brim curler Knapp had at the time. It was under Knapp's tutelage that Cavanagh became a master hatter.

Quote: The first derby hat made in America was made by James H. Knapp way back when the Crofut & Knapp concern was known as Knapp & Gilliam. In those days the factory products were sold through jobbing houses, and the jobbing house that Knapp & Gilliam sold their goods through was known as Henderson & Bird. The story is that some one had seen a stiff hat, a good deal of the character of the square crown hats that were afterward worn by coachmen. This hat Knapp & Gilliam made and took to New York to the jobbers, they in turn taking it to a retail outlet then on lower Broadway, in the vicinity of Ninth Street. They placed an order for a dozen and a half each of brown and black. Mr. Knapp asked for a name for the style, because then, as now, most hats were given a name. An English clerk suggested that they call it the "Darby," as the English Derby was then on. The hat was so named and afterward by a mispronunciation was known as the "Derby.".

 

[Maguire]

My first hat was a bailey black derby that cost about 35 dollars. I got it back in HS. I really liked how it looked and it seemed unique in noir as it would stick out in a sea of fedoras.. I wore it for years actually back when my hair was long and poofy and used it keep it down but the weather really messed it up and eventually its beaten up look wasn't helped as i wore headphones under . I still have it but i haven't worn it in years. It was a fine hat but i don't know, it seems to stick out far more than fedoras even in regular daily wear.

 

[WEEGEE]

EASTER BOWLER

 

[carter]

Nice collection, carter!

Is the Knapp Felt Derby a belled, English-style crown, or is it just a illusion of the camera?

Any ideas on the age? I'm guessing maybe '30s, from what I can see.

Brad

Brad, The Knapp-Felt may be slightly belled but it's hard to see. The crown is noticeably shorter than that of the Harman & Son. I do not know the date of manufacture.

Here are two more pictures from the inside of the Knapp-Felt:

There is another leather strip over a felt strip in the back under the sweatband. I suppose these were for sizing.

 

[feltfan]

Carter, that Stetson Nutria is quite a sight. Since it carries
the Chestnut St address, does it have a date of manufacture
on the inside of the sweatband? Any chance of a close-up
of that liner logo?

Thanks for showing that collection.

Still curious what people wear with their bowlers
(those of us not as cool as WEEGEE and his posse).

 

[carter]

Carter your collection is amazing! You said the first hat is a Bowler and the rest are Derbies (is that spelling right?) What is the difference? Just crown height?

I just used the term Bowler to differentiate the manufacture of the Harman & Son as being in the UK vs the US. There is a marked difference in the crown height as well.
Here are some more interior pictures of the Harman & Son:
Label in crown

Hatters and Trimmers Union stamp affixed to reverse of sweatband

Joining of sweatband

Felt strip behind front sweatband

Pin holes in crown. For ventilation?

 

[carter]

Carter, that Stetson Nutria is quite a sight. Since it carries
the Chestnut St address, does it have a date of manufacture
on the inside of the sweatband? Any chance of a close-up
of that liner logo?

Thanks for showing that collection.

Still curious what people wear with their bowlers
(those of us not as cool as WEEGEE and his posse).

I don't know the date of manufacture. Hopefully, some of our more knowledgable members can shed some light on this.

Here are a few more pictures from the interior of the Stetson Nutria:
Tags

Black paper strips placed between the liner and the body

Just as there is heavy black paper sewn on the top of the liner (over the logo), these would have insulated and protected the sides of the liner as well.

Close-up of liner logo

Here are two more shots from the interior of the Stetson Standard Quality:
Tags

Close-up of liner logo

 

[jamespowers]

Wonderful! My son loves his bowler as well. I'll have to get some pictures before he grows out of it like he does everything else.

 

[jamespowers]

Still curious what people wear with their bowlers
(those of us not as cool as WEEGEE and his posse).

Anything really. They were truly the everyman hat before the fedora took over that title in the late 20s.
You could see workmen wearing bowlers in their workclothes and people like Carnegie wearing them with a suit or even a tuxedo---I prefer a Homburg for that but ....
Today, I wear a bowler with a suit or with my everyday clothes which would constitute a pair of Khaki type pants, button down shirt and some type of jacket---usually a Pendleton shirt jacket with short coat lapels. It works as long as the colors don't clash.
I still have to get back to the guy about having a brown Derby made. [huh] :eusa_doh:

 

[Subvet642]

Anybody here have experience with the different fit you get from a bowler? My girlfriend got me a Christy's bowler in my correct size (7 1/2), and I find it's rather tight on the forehead, compared to my fedoras at least. The 7 5/8 however almost fell over my head. Maybe I just have a long skull!

I seem to have the same problem. I normally take a 7 5/8, but it was suggested that I try a 7 1/2 or 7 5/8 LO, but the shop didn't have any on hand. I'm still holding out hope, though. I'd wear it with a cable knit sweater, brown or black wool trousers and a brown or black workman's vest. Sort of an 1880's "Irish Pug" look, perfect for Boston. I may have to get a 7 3/4 and pad the sweatband.

 

[mayserwegener]

Here are a couple of mine I posted on the other thread.

Habig 1906 (new liner by Optimo)

Habig 1951

 

[feltfan]

Anything really. They were truly the everyman hat before the fedora took over that title in the late 20s.
You could see workmen wearing bowlers in their workclothes and people like Carnegie wearing them with a suit or even a tuxedo---I prefer a Homburg for that but ....
Today, I wear a bowler with a suit or with my everyday clothes which would constitute a pair of Khaki type pants, button down shirt and some type of jacket---usually a Pendleton shirt jacket with short coat lapels. It works as long as the colors don't clash.
I still have to get back to the guy about having a brown Derby made. [huh] :eusa_doh:

All right, I'll try it...

 

[jamespowers]

All right, I'll try it...

There you go! :eusa_clap :eusa_clap That's all we can ask. Put a Partagas or Montecristo in your mouth and you are really ready.

 

[carter]

Here are pictures of the leather hat box that the Harman & Son Bowler came in. The tag on top of the box reads "Dominion Line". The leather is in good condition inside and out with the exception of the handle needing to be reattached. The stretchable material inside has dry-rotted and needs to be replaced. There was a pair of starched cuffs inside the box with the bowler.
Top

Front with American Express World Service forwarding tag

Interior

Leather strap from interior

Leather strap and detached handle

starched cuffs found inside the hat box