The Bowler or Derby Hat

[immortaldiamond]

Anything really. They were truly the everyman hat before the fedora took over that title in the late 20s.
You could see workmen wearing bowlers in their workclothes and people like Carnegie wearing them with a suit or even a tuxedo---I prefer a Homburg for that but ....
Today, I wear a bowler with a suit or with my everyday clothes which would constitute a pair of Khaki type pants, button down shirt and some type of jacket---usually a Pendleton shirt jacket with short coat lapels. It works as long as the colors don't clash.
I still have to get back to the guy about having a brown Derby made. [huh] :eusa_doh:

I love this idea of a brown bowler. I think it could look great with even a black outfit - a way to wear a terrific styled hat without it seeming artificially retro.

 

[feltfan]

I don't know the date of manufacture. Hopefully, some of our more knowledgable members can shed some light on this.

I thought the hats with the Chestnut St address on the sweat had
stamped dates on the inside of the sweat? I guess not all of them.

Close-up of liner logo

Am I confused, or is that a picture of a beaver with
the words, "Made of real nutria fur"?

Great hat box, BTW!

Thanks for the photos!

 

[Cigarband]

Wood this Bowl-er fit?

http://www.knot-head.com

 

[Slim Portly]

Am I confused, or is that a picture of a beaver with
the words, "Made of real nutria fur"?

Behold, the humble Nutria.

 

[carter]

I thought the hats with the Chestnut St address on the sweat had
stamped dates on the inside of the sweat? I guess not all of them. ...

OK, here is another picture from the reverse of the sweatband on the Stetson Nutria derby. Some of the stamping is very faint.

"27 BOW 2 1/4", then faint stamp below black numbers (464) look like "STIFF - LOT 6611"

There is one other stamp on the reverse of the sweatband. It reads "D763529".

Does any of this help establish a date of manufacture?

BTW, a beaver and a nutria look very similar. The differentiation is the long tail of the nutria vs the broad, flat tail of the beaver. I've seen both in the wild and it's easy to mistake a nutria for a beaver at first sighting. However, it's legal to shoot nutria in Texas. It is not legal to shoot beaver.

 

[Delthayre]

The jaws of interest

I still have to get back to the guy about having a brown Derby made. [huh] :eusa_doh:

Is, "the guy," in this instance John McMicking of L & H Hats? If it is, could you write something about his work, especially its quality and, if it doesn't strike you as too crass, its expense?

And, "the guy," isn't Mister McMicking, I, and probably others, would be quite interested in knowing who he is.

 

[feltfan]

Behold, the humble Nutria.

I've seen 'em in the flesh. But the animal on the logo
appears to have a padded tail, like a beaver. Also it's
gnawing on wood.

 

[feltfan]

Does any of this help establish a date of manufacture?

Check out this thread:

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=22965

Scroll down a few pictures.

 

[Slim Portly]

I've seen 'em in the flesh. But the animal on the logo
appears to have a padded tail, like a beaver. Also it's
gnawing on wood.

That tail looks kind of skinny to me. And nutrias do chew on wood.

 

[feltfan]

That tail looks kind of skinny to me. And nutrias do chew on wood.

Where I saw 'em, people chew on nutrias. And I gotta say
the one I saw looked like a rolling mudball. They move fast
when there are gators in the water.

 

[carter]

The tail in the picture could be a long rat-like tail that disappears beneath the surface of the water. That's what it looks like to me.
The last time I saw a nutria in the wild, it was snacking on reeds by a lakeshore in east Texas. It would dive beneath the surface and come up with a detached reed then float on it's back and chew on the roots. My son and I just sat and watched until it finished snacking and swam away.

 

[Bingles]

HaHa... every time I see a Beaver out in the wild (there are a few by me), I turn to my friends and say "That would make a nice hat!"

[/QUOTE]

 

[jamespowers]

Is, "the guy," in this instance John McMicking of L & H Hats? If it is, could you write something about his work, especially its quality and, if it doesn't strike you as too crass, its expense?

And, "the guy," isn't Mister McMicking, I, and probably others, would be quite interested in knowing who he is.

It is indeed him. I still have to get an order in to adequately report the quality and expense of his work. I know the general area but it might have changed since I last checked.

 

[jonbuilder]

This is the way I like them worn.

Check out gunman second from the left with his arm in the sling. Starting with a bowler hat with the similar crown height and brim width how hard is it to get the up swept brim at the sides with the down turn front and rear. I think a found a bowler that I can get this look with. The crown is soft in bowler terms but hard compared to a fedora. The brim of the hat I am looking at has a fine pencil cure. I cannot see if the hat in the picture has a cure at the brim

 

[Brad Bowers]

If you get a modern derby, you should be able to do this without any problem. I'm sure that this one is modern.

A vintage derby, post-1900, will have the wrong curl, plus will be too stiff to really work with very easily. But a modern derby will have a homburg curl, as this one does, and won't be as stiff, so you should be able to curl it up on the sides with steam. Modern derbies are also flatter on top, and so will be similar to this one.

Brad

 

[OddSteve]

If you get a modern derby, you should be able to do this without any problem. I'm sure that this one is modern.

A vintage derby, post-1900, will have the wrong curl, plus will be too stiff to really work with very easily. But a modern derby will have a homburg curl, as this one does, and won't be as stiff, so you should be able to curl it up on the sides with steam. Modern derbies are also flatter on top, and so will be similar to this one.

Just out of curiosity, how is the curl in a vintage derby's brim different than that of a homburg? So far, I never had the chance to hold either one in my hands

Steve

 

[Brad Bowers]

Here are a few quick photos to show the difference.

Here is a homburg for reference. On a homburg, the brim is usually curled upwards equidistant all the way around, or nearly so in some cases.

Now, a classic American derby is not curled equidistant. The front and rear are curled only minimally, maybe an 1/8 inch or so, while the sides are heavily curled and folded back on top of the brim, so that they are nearly parallel. Indeed, the curling process involved pressing the brim as if you were making a overwelt, and then opening it back up.

So, for comparison, on the left is a 1924-1928 Dobbs Derby, and on the right is a 1959 Cavanagh derby. By 1959, the derby curling process was all but lost to the hat factories, and was more labor intesive, so when the 1959 derby revival came around, the factories bound and curled the brims the easiest way, which is fairly similar to a homburg curl.

These photos show the rolled brim you want. On the left is the 1920s Dobbs, and you can see the older-style curl does not give a pleasing effect. The "modern" curl, however, gives you about what you see in the movie photo above. This is why I say to go with a modern hat, e.g., a 1959-present derby. The crown will also be flatter on top, as in the movie photo.

I'm planning a Derby Deconstruction post soon, which will explain more about the intricacies of derbies.

Brad

 

[OddSteve]

Thanks a lot Brad, very interesting to read :eusa_clap

 

[jonbuilder]

My first bowler vintage?

Brad your demonstration is much appreciated and clear thank you. I just brought my first bowler that appears to be from the 30s or earlier as described by the seller pictures

here is the listing discribtion followed by the sellers reponse to my questions
This Bowler hat was made sometime around the 1930's. The condition is Mint, and I mean NOS, Unworn, Perfectly Mint Condition. The leather sweatband is very soft and pliable, with no wear or damage. It is also incredibly detailed in it's sewing and design. I've never seen another sweatband exactly like this one. The entire front forehead area is larger, extending further down and is floating with no stitching, while the rest of the band is attached with amazing care and precision using some kind of double stitching. The result is a very comfortable and fantastic looking sweatband.

The felt is also in perfect condition. It has no mothing, odors, stains, fading or other issues of any kind. Any spots seen in the photos are dust, and it's a darker black than the photos show, also. The brim is curled extremely well, the sides are almost flat and it's nice and tight all around. The sweatband displays the store name where it was sold, A.L. Bird & Sons. The crown logo reads Bird's, Detroit Mich. This hat will be shipped with a non-matching hatbox to protect it.



Size - 7 1/4

Crown Height - 5"

Ribbon Height - 1"

Hello. I've been collecting vintage hats for about 7 years. I've owned hats from the 1920's to the 60's. This one has features I link to 1930's production, like sweatband size and color, ribbon style, stitching and things like that. It could be slightly earlier, from the 1920's, but not later than the 30's. This hat was probably made under contract by a large hat company, though it's possible it could have been made by Bird's. That's all the info I really have on it, but you could search online for Bird's or A.L. Bird & Sons in Detroit. The store is long gone, but you may find old ads or other bits of info. Thanks for the question, I hope I was able to help a little.

Hello. No, the crown is actually quite soft compared to most derbies/bowlers I've come across. Stiffer than a fedora, though. Thanks for the question

Looks to me as if I have the earlier version of brim curl but I am looking forward to wearing my Bowler

Sorry for the cut and paste but I am not a prolific writer like some of you generous posters

cheers jon

 

[Brad Bowers]

Nice derby, and I'd agree with the '30s dating. Could go as far as early-'40s, but '30s is most likely. Derby production in America dropped way off by the mid-'30s, and was all but dead by 1940. Maybe we should blame Al Smith for killing the derby, just as JFK is blamed for killing the hat in general. lol

Interesting that the crown doesn't sound as stiff as one would think it should be.

Brad