carouselvic
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Still have to get me one of these LEO hats. Very nice, Vic. Is that model an Erodisti or Ecosti?
the model is Driasti
Still have to get me one of these LEO hats. Very nice, Vic. Is that model an Erodisti or Ecosti?
Thanks! I'll add it to the database. Preliminary findings very soon!the model is Driasti
Shame [emoji20]Thanks, Steve. It would be something to be shopping for those hats at those prices today for sure, but Cambini is no longer there, so probably no chance for old stock there I'm afraid.
Stefan, Great + informative updates!The Borsalino Recap updated
Some weeks ago I posted an overview of the information there is on the lounge on all things Borsalino. Apart from an updated version of this information, with several colours added for instance, there’s also a first overview of the findings on the link between the model name and code numbers on the labels.
I’ve put all the available and readable labels in a database along with the other information that could be referenced to on the label, like felt, weight, brim width. Conclusion in general is that the dataset and useable information is unfortunately very limited. I’ve managed to collect data of a good 300 hats, which is not a lot to be honest. A large number of pictures is lost and in a lot of cases where the pictures are still there, the information is incomplete or the label was not photographed. This is most obvious with the older, pre-war hats, where the number of available hats is very small indeed.
Here’s an update of the recap. But we need more of these hats, guys!
But what cán we say? Well, from the information that is there it seems that the general concensus about dating the hats on the basis of the type of label is accurate to a very large extent. There is however an intermediate period between the cerrated labels of the mid to later sixties and the rounded labels with the hyphenated numbers, where information is more scarce and less clear than we’d like to think.
So, to put that in an overview we get this:
borsalino cell type (two different types) 1920 - 1936
View attachment 168210 View attachment 168211
borsalino sideways (sometimes in colour or with separate size sticker) 1936 - 1953
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The cerrated labels come in two variations. @alanfgag noticed that there was a difference in these, where one type was cerrated on at least three sides, so they must have come from a sheet. These are earlier and still have the model name in the lower right corner. below we see an example with the cerration on the left side, dated 1958.
borsalino cerrated sheet 1954 - 1960
View attachment 168215 View attachment 168214
Then we get the cerrated labels with straight edges left and right (like they were on a roll of one label wide) and the model name no longer appears in the lower right. Below an example dating from as early as 1960.
borsalino cerrated roll 1961 - 1965
View attachment 168217 View attachment 168216
After that the labels start to appear in straight edged shape with rounded corners. These comes in different shapes; more square looking, which I believe to be earlier and more elongated, which seem to appear in the early seventies. The colour name is still on the label.
borsalino rounded with colour name 1966 - 1975
View attachment 168225
View attachment 168226
For the next information I need a new post (because of the picture limit).
Steve, thanks! The earlier period still leaves us with the most uncertainty. The year 1920 as a starting point for the cell type label is completely arbitrary, just because we don't know about the labels of very early Borsalinos. @carouselvic and @Tonio have the largest number of very old Borsalinos and both are understandably apprehensive about peeling away the sweatbands of those to have a look. So you are correct that 1920 is not established as a starting year. Same thing with the transition to the cerrated labels. You have posted the one dated 1938 and it's still the earliest known one. I took 1936 as the transition year because that was the year the company took over GB Borsalino fu Lazzaro, which I thought may have been a natural moment for Borsalino to start with the new labelling. Again: more data is needed to prove it one way or the other. To a lesser extent this is true for the other transitions as well. There's more data there, but these dates are still not exact.Stefan, Great + informative updates!
borsalino cell type (two different types) 1920 - 1936
View attachment 168210 View attachment 168211
Can't say when the Cell Labels started and when they finished the 1930s. I have an example of Non Cell + Separate Size label Echter Borsalino that is sweatband dated 1938 (see link below). How did you come up with 1936?
https://germanaustrianhats.invision...ino-german-market/?do=findComment&comment=736
Thank you, Daniele. The suggestion to go to the source and collect the data there, is certainly still an option for me. It's not something I can do in the short term though. It would however require a good deal of planning, but it's not off the table.What more can you add to your historical research work?
What to say about such a painstaking job?
All you have to do is go to the source in the of Alessandria and visit the Borsalino museum, collect the data you need, take photographs, interview some old workers or managers and write the definitive book on Borsalino production.
What else?
SUPERLATIVO!!!
Thank you, Alan. Collecting the data was possible largely thanks to your well documented collection.A marvelous addition to this thread... thank you for this resource, Stefan!
Thank you, Bowen. High praise for just collecting the available information and putting it in a spreadsheet (but I'll take it anyway). I like to think of it more as a starting point to be added to, expanded and changed to get a better picture of the ins and outs of the hats we like so much.A monumental effort in this research and documentation Stefan!!
I am in awe of your passion and dedication towards educating us in all things Borsalino!
You are a true gentleman and scholar!
Thank you so much!
Bowen
Stefan, 1936 could be around the time when the Borsalino Giuseppe e Fratello Cell labels are dropped. The original Borsalino fu Lazzaro hats that I have seen have Borsalino fu Lazzaro Celled labels (very similar to Borsalino Giuseppe e Fratello Celled labels). Tonio is the only one I know of with old Borsalino Giuseppe e Fratello hats that might have different labels but I can understand his reluctance to check.Steve, thanks! The earlier period still leaves us with the most uncertainty. The year 1920 as a starting point for the cell type label is completely arbitrary, just because we don't know about the labels of very early Borsalinos. @carouselvic and @Tonio have the largest number of very old Borsalinos and both are understandably apprehensive about peeling away the sweatbands of those to have a look. So you are correct that 1920 is not established as a starting year. Same thing with the transition to the cerrated labels. You have posted the one dated 1938 and it's still the earliest known one. I took 1936 as the transition year because that was the year the company took over GB Borsalino fu Lazzaro, which I thought may have been a natural moment for Borsalino to start with the new labelling. Again: more data is needed to prove it one way or the other. To a lesser extent this is true for the other transitions as well. There's more data there, but these dates are still not exact.
Daniele, Do you know if the museum open to the public again? I can't remember the status.What more can you add to your historical research work?
What to say about such a painstaking job?
All you have to do is go to the source in the of Alessandria and visit the Borsalino museum, collect the data you need, take photographs, interview some old workers or managers and write the definitive book on Borsalino production.
What else?
SUPERLATIVO!!!
Yes, Steve, I will!Max, Looks great! Can you please post photos of the paper label when it arrives? Thanks!