The BORSALINO BROTHERHOOD

[alanfgag]

Yep... that’s swell. I have a 31 and a higher number and $20 retail, but no OPA. Just imported.

 

[steur]

Here is the hat I own that is similar to yours... I know I've posted it previously to this thread, but there are quite a few pages. They should sleep close to each other. 8^)

Ah, yes. Magnificent hat and it deserves an encore. Can't see enough of that one really. Who knows what would come of it if we were to put these two hats together...

 

[alanfgag]

Ah, yes. Magnificent hat and it deserves an encore. Can't see enough of that one really. Who knows what would come of it if we were to put these two hats together...

I think a cloning experiment might be in order. Maybe we can get Vic's too.

 

[Daniele Tanto]

Steve, this is a remarkable resource and a fascinating read. Not sure how I missed it previously. How many U.S. market Borsalino hats from this period have been posted here over the years? Certainly a tiny number. The tariffs must have been an effective deterrent. Was there a more restrictive embargo enjoined during wartime? And were the embargoes/tariffs removed entirely after the end of the war to assist in rebuilding the European manufacturers?

Reading the testimony on the production numbers and dollars is good evidence against the meme that the decline in the hat industry should be blamed on President Kennedy. Surely the blame lies with Calvin Coolidge. ;^)

Alan, Thank you! It's interesting reading for sure.

I checked the "Borsalinos with Celled Paper Labels" thread and I found 5 American Market Borsalinos out of 21 total. Borsalino sold well for imports (in the 1920s) but the overall numbers were very small compared to domestic manufactured Men's Fur Felt Hats.** Borsalinos exports to America pretty much stopped in the 1930s. The tarriffs, the Depression and eventually WWII were major factors. I will have to see if I can find the posts or Daniele might chime in. It's was definitely a struggle to import Men's Fur Felt Hats! Bill & Caldwell (and others) were busy with Congress.

**
1927 Imported Men's Fur Felt Hats were ~ 28,500 Dozen
1927 American Manufactured Men's Fur Felt Hats were 1,961,410 Dozen

In the history of the Borsalino brand in the United States we must also take into account G.B. Borsalino fu Lazzaro because they were closely linked to the US market and the crisis of 1929 was fatal for the rebellious cousins who saw one, if not the largest market, closed by a totally economic situation changed and not very open to imports. This according to Italian economists was the major cause of the disappearance of "house" Borsalino competitors. However it is true that for "Giuseppe Borsalino" the American market was not a big market, much more profitable than that of South America and other parts of the world. I believe that the export of Borsalino, small but continuous, ends with Italy's entry into the war, June 1940, and the consequent political problems. You must take into account that Teresio Borsalino is very good and neutral at politics https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teresio_Borsalino In the post-war period, Borsalino's fame became great even in the United States due to a combination of factors, so much so that Stetson offered to buy Borsalino. Rejection was regal, but this is modern economic history

 

[mayserwegener]

In the history of the Borsalino brand in the United States we must also take into account G.B. Borsalino fu Lazzaro because they were closely linked to the US market and the crisis of 1929 was fatal for the rebellious cousins who saw one, if not the largest market, closed by a totally economic situation changed and not very open to imports. This according to Italian economists was the major cause of the disappearance of "house" Borsalino competitors. However it is true that for "Giuseppe Borsalino" the American market was not a big market, much more profitable than that of South America and other parts of the world. I believe that the export of Borsalino, small but continuous, ends with Italy's entry into the war, June 1940, and the consequent political problems. You must take into account that Teresio Borsalino is very good and neutral at politics https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teresio_Borsalino In the post-war period, Borsalino's fame became great even in the United States due to a combination of factors, so much so that Stetson offered to buy Borsalino. Rejection was regal, but this is modern economic history

Daniele, Thank you for the information!

 

[steur]

The BORSALINO BROTHERHOOD RECAP

I haven't been posting for the last few day, but that doesn't mean I haven't been busy. I've been re-reading all of the posts on this thread and made a recap for myself of all things borsalino (well, not all, but a lot).
Let's start with the colours. These are the ones we've seen and of which the pictures have been preserved. I've called the lighter colours "naturals", but these are somewhat in line I guess with the silverbelly colours of the American hats. Black (nero) doesn't get its own group. I did notice there are very few blues, which means they were either difficult to make or there was not much demand for them.
Most of the metals belong in the group "greys" as well (but not all of them).

Colours

Then there are the colours we've not seen as felts, but could still be out there. How do we know this? When Steve (@mayserwegener) and Daniele (@Daniele Tanto ) visited the Borsalino factory, Steve took this shot:

While it is true that these are the colours of the windcords that are in the boxes and not necessarily of felts, it is still a tantalizing picture. We've seen some of these colours as ribbon colours, but who knows? All in all a mindboggling amount of colours.
Next to that is the list of Misto felts. Quite a number of those too.

Another little tidbit is that on the left hand side of the picture a list can be seen on the rack with country codes on them. I wonder if these could be traced back to numbers on the labels.

Then there are the model names. I've limited that list to the model names on the labels inside the hats. The model names that come from sweatbands or retailers are not on this list. We hold the theory on the lounge that these are completely made up names, because neither google translate nor Italian speakers can make heads or tails of them. I'm beginning to think this may not be the case. Looking at all of them in a row there are a certain number of affixes that appear regularly, like "sca", "sti", "spo", "san" and "la". I'm thinking these are so frequent that they don't seem to be random at all, but follow certain grammatical rules. That would point to a language and I'm beginning to think that these names could be originating from the Piemontese dialect or language (the jury is still out on wether it's either one or the other) and maybe even specifically the dialect of Alessandria. Maybe these are words that are pronounced in a certain way phonetically in that dialect and then were written down, which would explain why certain names occur in different forms, which resemble each other closely. I can relate to this somewhat, because I'm a dialect speaker myself and there is not set of rules or given spelling for the way the pronounciation is supposed to be written down. If you're trying to write down a dialect you just take a stab at it. Which is what these name look like to me. Now all we need is someone from Alessandria who speaks the local dialect to test this theory.
The model names of lobbia/homburgs and bowlers/melones are separate.
And finally there are the quality designations found on the liners.

More colours, misto felts, models and designations

The list doesn't include the felts, because there's some uncertainty about these refer to either the felt itself or to the finish of the hat. But for completists: I've found these felts:
nutria
castoro
martoro
aquila
lontra
visone.

Finishes are named specifically as well on a good number of hats. These names I've found so far:
serikon
diamante
angora
pesca
imperiale
silchi
mimosa
krystal
peluche
castoro.

There's a separate thread on the borsalino label lore, specifically the celled format (recommended). Generally the concensus for now seems to be for the labels:
* celled format: earliest form occuring in the earliest dated hats from the twenties (two different types)
* cerrated format with the borsalino name sideways: appears in the thirties (my theory would be after the GB Borsalino fu Lazzaro was taken over in 1936) up until the early fifties (there are known combinations with OPS tags)
* cerrated format without the borsalino name: appears in the early fifties (again: there are examples in combination with OPS tags) up until the late sixties
* rounded edge label: appears in the late sixties up until 1980. Usually has the colour name on it. These labels for several years hold the fabrication year as the first two numbers of the upper right label number.
* elongated rounded edge label: just holds codenumbers and size in lower right corner. Still in use today.

That's all you need to know for now. Test tomorrow

 

[Steinbockhase]

The BORSALINO BROTHERHOOD RECAP

I haven't been posting for the last few day, but that doesn't mean I haven't been busy. I've been re-reading all of the posts on this thread and made a recap for myself of all things borsalino (well, not all, but a lot).
Let's start with the colours. These are the ones we've seen and of which the pictures have been preserved. I've called the lighter colours "naturals", but these are somewhat in line I guess with the silverbelly colours of the American hats. Black (nero) doesn't get its own group. I did notice there are very few blues, which means they were either difficult to make or there was not much demand for them.
Most of the metals belong in the group "greys" as well (but not all of them).

Colours

View attachment 161749

Then there are the colours we've not seen as felts, but could still be out there. How do we know this? When Steve (@mayserwegener) and Daniele (@Daniele Tanto ) visited the Borsalino factory, Steve took this shot:
View attachment 161751
While it is true that these are the colours of the windcords that are in the boxes and not necessarily of felts, it is still a tantalizing picture. We've seen some of these colours as ribbon colours, but who knows? All in all a mindboggling amount of colours.
Next to that is the list of Misto felts. Quite a number of those too.

Another little tidbit is that on the left hand side of the picture a list can be seen on the rack with country codes on them. I wonder if these could be traced back to numbers on the labels.

Then there are the model names. I've limited that list to the model names on the labels inside the hats. The model names that come from sweatbands or retailers are not on this list. We hold the theory on the lounge that these are completely made up names, because neither google translate nor Italian speakers can't make heads or tails of them. I'm beginning to think this may not be the case. Looking at all of them in a row there are a certain number of affixes that appear regularly, like "sca", "sti", "spo", "san" and "la". I'm thinking these are so frequent that they don't seem to be random at all, but follow certain grammatical rules. That would point to a language and I'm beginning to think that these names could be originating from the Piemontese dialect or language (the jury is still out on wether it's either one or the other) and maybe even specifically the dialect of Alessandria. Maybe these are words that are pronounced in a certain way phonetically in that dialect and then were written down, which would explain why certain names occur in different forms, which resemble each other closely. I can relate to this somewhat, because I'm a dialect speaker myself and there is not set of rules or given spelling for the way the pronounciation is supposed to be written down. If you're trying to write down a dialect you just take a stab at it. Which is what these name look like to me. Now all we need is someone from Alessandria who speaks the local dialect to test this theory.
The model names of lobbia/homburgs and bowlers/melones are separate.
And finally there are the quality designations found on the liners.

More colours, misto felts, models and designations

View attachment 161750

The list doesn't include the felts, because there's some uncertainty about these refer to either the felt itself or to the finish of the hat. But for completists: I've found these felts:
nutria
castoro
martoro
aquila
lontra
visone.

Finishes are named specifically as well on a good number of hats. These names I've found so far:
serikon
diamante
angora
pesca
imperiale
silchi
mimosa
krystal
peluche
castoro.

There's a separate thread on the borsalino label lore, specifically the celled format (recommended). Generally the concensus for now seems to be for the labels:
* celled format: earliest form occuring in the earliest dated hats from the twenties (two different types)
* cerrated format with the borsalino name sideways: appears in the thirties (my theory would be after the GB Borsalino fu Lazzaro was taken over in 1936) up until the early fifties (there are known combinations with OPS tags)
* cerrated format without the borsalino name: appears in the early fifties (again: there are examples in combination with OPS tags) up until the late sixties
* rounded edge label: appears in the late sixties up until 1980. Usually has the colour name on it. These labels for several years hold the fabrication year as the first two numbers of the upper right label number.
* elongated rounded edge label: just holds codenumbers and size in lower right corner. Still in use today.

That's all you need to know for now. Test tomorrow

Bravo and thank you for sharing your very useful detailed collection and summary of facts and finds.
I'm giving this post its own bookmark as compact Borsalino knowledge base.
How can we contribute? I for example have a Borsalino in "ossido" ... so no longer "unseen color"

 

[Steve1857]

The BORSALINO BROTHERHOOD RECAP

I haven't been posting for the last few day, but that doesn't mean I haven't been busy. I've been re-reading all of the posts on this thread and made a recap for myself of all things borsalino (well, not all, but a lot).
Let's start with the colours. These are the ones we've seen and of which the pictures have been preserved. I've called the lighter colours "naturals", but these are somewhat in line I guess with the silverbelly colours of the American hats. Black (nero) doesn't get its own group. I did notice there are very few blues, which means they were either difficult to make or there was not much demand for them.
Most of the metals belong in the group "greys" as well (but not all of them).

Colours

View attachment 161749

Then there are the colours we've not seen as felts, but could still be out there. How do we know this? When Steve (@mayserwegener) and Daniele (@Daniele Tanto ) visited the Borsalino factory, Steve took this shot:
View attachment 161751
While it is true that these are the colours of the windcords that are in the boxes and not necessarily of felts, it is still a tantalizing picture. We've seen some of these colours as ribbon colours, but who knows? All in all a mindboggling amount of colours.
Next to that is the list of Misto felts. Quite a number of those too.

Another little tidbit is that on the left hand side of the picture a list can be seen on the rack with country codes on them. I wonder if these could be traced back to numbers on the labels.

Then there are the model names. I've limited that list to the model names on the labels inside the hats. The model names that come from sweatbands or retailers are not on this list. We hold the theory on the lounge that these are completely made up names, because neither google translate nor Italian speakers can't make heads or tails of them. I'm beginning to think this may not be the case. Looking at all of them in a row there are a certain number of affixes that appear regularly, like "sca", "sti", "spo", "san" and "la". I'm thinking these are so frequent that they don't seem to be random at all, but follow certain grammatical rules. That would point to a language and I'm beginning to think that these names could be originating from the Piemontese dialect or language (the jury is still out on wether it's either one or the other) and maybe even specifically the dialect of Alessandria. Maybe these are words that are pronounced in a certain way phonetically in that dialect and then were written down, which would explain why certain names occur in different forms, which resemble each other closely. I can relate to this somewhat, because I'm a dialect speaker myself and there is not set of rules or given spelling for the way the pronounciation is supposed to be written down. If you're trying to write down a dialect you just take a stab at it. Which is what these name look like to me. Now all we need is someone from Alessandria who speaks the local dialect to test this theory.
The model names of lobbia/homburgs and bowlers/melones are separate.
And finally there are the quality designations found on the liners.

More colours, misto felts, models and designations

View attachment 161750

The list doesn't include the felts, because there's some uncertainty about these refer to either the felt itself or to the finish of the hat. But for completists: I've found these felts:
nutria
castoro
martoro
aquila
lontra
visone.

Finishes are named specifically as well on a good number of hats. These names I've found so far:
serikon
diamante
angora
pesca
imperiale
silchi
mimosa
krystal
peluche
castoro.

There's a separate thread on the borsalino label lore, specifically the celled format (recommended). Generally the concensus for now seems to be for the labels:
* celled format: earliest form occuring in the earliest dated hats from the twenties (two different types)
* cerrated format with the borsalino name sideways: appears in the thirties (my theory would be after the GB Borsalino fu Lazzaro was taken over in 1936) up until the early fifties (there are known combinations with OPS tags)
* cerrated format without the borsalino name: appears in the early fifties (again: there are examples in combination with OPS tags) up until the late sixties
* rounded edge label: appears in the late sixties up until 1980. Usually has the colour name on it. These labels for several years hold the fabrication year as the first two numbers of the upper right label number.
* elongated rounded edge label: just holds codenumbers and size in lower right corner. Still in use today.

That's all you need to know for now. Test tomorrow

Stefan, busy you have been and I bow to your dedication. This needs as much pouring over as you have dedicated to it. A fascinating study. Cudos to you.

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

 

[mayserwegener]

Stefan, Fantastic work! It's great to see all these names together with your insight. I will have to go back over it a few times to digest it all. I hope Daniele can provide feedback on your findings.

 

[steur]

Bravo and thank you for sharing your very useful detailed collection and summary of facts and finds.
I'm giving this post its own bookmark as compact Borsalino knowledge base.
How can we contribute? I for example have a Borsalino in "ossido" ... so no longer "unseen color"

Thanks. Doesn't sound like it, but going through 358 pages of Borsalinos is actually fun to do. The best way to improve on these lists is of course to find more Borsalinos with different colours and dates behind the sweatbands
Finding the historic Borsalino administration would be even better of course! If you have a Borsalino in Ossido colour, please post it in this thread with a picture of the label. I have seen ossido as a colour of ribbons, but not as a felt colour.

 

[steur]

Stefan, busy you have been and I bow to your dedication. This needs as much pouring over as you have dedicated to it. A fascinating study. Cudos to you.

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

Stefan, Fantastic work! It's great to see all these names together with your insight. I will have to go back over it a few times to digest it all. I hope Daniele can provide feedback on your findings.

Steve and Steve, thank you. It is a work in progress. A great many of the pictures in this thread were lost unfortunately and not all of the hats on display show pictures of the labels, so there was more information there. We can expand on the information there is of course and weed out the mistakes I may have made. The pre-war era is of special interest of course because we have so few examples of the hats of that period. Reading back through the thread it struck me though how much was already there and how little I knew or remembered.
Another odd thing was that the hats seem to pop up in waves; there was a period when all of a sudden Gorasgu models were posted one after the other. Then there were the coffin box hats which became available in some numbers and I have experienced myself that German market Borsalinos suddenly seemed to be everywhere.

 

[Daniele Tanto]

Stefan, Fantastic work! It's great to see all these names together with your insight. I will have to go back over it a few times to digest it all. I hope Daniele can provide feedback on your findings.

Thanks. Doesn't sound like it, but going through 358 pages of Borsalinos is actually fun to do. The best way to improve on these lists is of course to find more Borsalinos with different colours and dates behind the sweatbands
Finding the historic Borsalino administration would be even better of course! If you have a Borsalino in Ossido colour, please post it in this thread with a picture of the label. I have seen ossido as a colour of ribbons, but not as a felt colour.

Stefan, many compliments for the accuracy of the data collected and patience in assembling them. I believe that the next move to complete or, at least, enrich the database on Borsalino is to contact the Municipality of Alessandria that has all the historical Borsalino's files in storage, as well as the hats and artifacts that are part of the Borsalino museum, now closed or waiting to be opened, or open by appointment only. Your aim is to produce a tangible document historically on the Borsalino factory, so the next step is to go to the source. I can help you with the Italian language and the Italian bureaucracy, accompanying you to Alessandria to have an "informed facts" guide. In the meantime I can send you the contents of a CD containing documentation on the balance sheets of the historical Borsalino. Two notes on the Italian language to complete your wonderful research: martora and non martoro. Those that you indicate as completions of a possible word in the Alexandrian dialect are not suffixed in Italian language, but I can write you for this in private.
Bravissimo e complimenti!

 

[steur]

Stefan, many compliments for the accuracy of the data collected and patience in assembling them. I believe that the next move to complete or, at least, enrich the database on Borsalino is to contact the Municipality of Alessandria that has all the historical Borsalino's files in storage, as well as the hats and artifacts that are part of the Borsalino museum, now closed or waiting to be opened, or open by appointment only. Your aim is to produce a tangible document historically on the Borsalino factory, so the next step is to go to the source. I can help you with the Italian language and the Italian bureaucracy, accompanying you to Alessandria to have an "informed facts" guide. In the meantime I can send you the contents of a CD containing documentation on the balance sheets of the historical Borsalino. Two notes on the Italian language to complete your wonderful research: martora and non martoro. Those that you indicate as completions of a possible word in the Alexandrian dialect are not suffixed in Italian language, but I can write you for this in private.
Bravissimo e complimenti!

Daniele, thanks. Interesting thought and something I need to think about. Certainly sounds like an interesting project.
You are right on the martoro of course: in my spreadsheet I have this typo corrected.

 

[alanfgag]

My appreciation as well, Stefan... what a great resource. Now to create a database with pictures included for reference... a retirement project, perhaps!

 

[steur]

My appreciation as well, Stefan... what a great resource. Now to create a database with pictures included for reference... a retirement project, perhaps!

Thank you, Alan. A lot of this has its origins in your collection it seems...
Shame really that so many pictures in this thread were lost and a lot of hats were posted without a picture of the label.
After Daniele's post I've been looking into the Borsalino museum and it appears they have 4000 hats in the collection. That would keep me busy for some time after retirement (still quite a way to go for that). Gives me some time to find a way to get my hands on them...

 

[alanfgag]

Thank you, Alan. A lot of this has its origins in your collection it seems...
Shame really that so many pictures in this thread were lost and a lot of hats were posted without a picture of the label.
After Daniele's post I've been looking into the Borsalino museum and it appears they have 4000 hats in the collection. That would keep me busy for some time after retirement (still quite a way to go for that). Gives me some time to find a way to get my hands on them...

That was my retirement. You're still a kid. A visit to that Museum would be a dream.

 

[jlee562]

Here's one that was probably a victim of broken links.

Marked "Torino" on the sweatband, color is Bismuto. The original sweat detached and was replaced at Black Sheep hatworks.

 

[Garrett]

Stefan, great project! Don't forget to add colour "Panera" to your naturals column.

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/cream-borsalino-size-7.95059/

 

[steur]

That was my retirement. You're still a kid. A visit to that Museum would be a dream.

It's the cold climate that keeps me looking fresh
If you start with finding a way to get into that museum we'd be well on our way. I gather from Daniele that it's by appointment only these days.

 

[steur]

Here's one that was probably a victim of broken links.

Marked "Torino" on the sweatband, color is Bismuto. The original sweat detached and was replaced at Black Sheep headworks.

Stefan, great project! Don't forget to add colour "Panera" to your naturals column.

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/cream-borsalino-size-7.95059/

Thank you, gentlemen. I might be coming back to this several times with requests for data on these hats. I think the way to go is to collect as much information as possible and see what comparing all that info tells us. It will take some time, but we're in no hurry (are we?).
Gorgeous hat btw, Jared.
Panera added to the colours, Garrett.