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The BORSALINO BROTHERHOOD

DRB

One Too Many
Messages
1,621
Location
Florida
The BORSALINO BROTHERHOOD RECAP

I haven't been posting for the last few day, but that doesn't mean I haven't been busy. I've been re-reading all of the posts on this thread and made a recap for myself of all things borsalino (well, not all, but a lot).
Let's start with the colours. These are the ones we've seen and of which the pictures have been preserved. I've called the lighter colours "naturals", but these are somewhat in line I guess with the silverbelly colours of the American hats. Black (nero) doesn't get its own group. I did notice there are very few blues, which means they were either difficult to make or there was not much demand for them.
Most of the metals belong in the group "greys" as well (but not all of them).

Colours

View attachment 161749

Then there are the colours we've not seen as felts, but could still be out there. How do we know this? When Steve (@mayserwegener) and Daniele (@Daniele Tanto ) visited the Borsalino factory, Steve took this shot:
View attachment 161751
While it is true that these are the colours of the windcords that are in the boxes and not necessarily of felts, it is still a tantalizing picture. We've seen some of these colours as ribbon colours, but who knows? All in all a mindboggling amount of colours.
Next to that is the list of Misto felts. Quite a number of those too.

Another little tidbit is that on the left hand side of the picture a list can be seen on the rack with country codes on them. I wonder if these could be traced back to numbers on the labels.

Then there are the model names. I've limited that list to the model names on the labels inside the hats. The model names that come from sweatbands or retailers are not on this list. We hold the theory on the lounge that these are completely made up names, because neither google translate nor Italian speakers can make heads or tails of them. I'm beginning to think this may not be the case. Looking at all of them in a row there are a certain number of affixes that appear regularly, like "sca", "sti", "spo", "san" and "la". I'm thinking these are so frequent that they don't seem to be random at all, but follow certain grammatical rules. That would point to a language and I'm beginning to think that these names could be originating from the Piemontese dialect or language (the jury is still out on wether it's either one or the other) and maybe even specifically the dialect of Alessandria. Maybe these are words that are pronounced in a certain way phonetically in that dialect and then were written down, which would explain why certain names occur in different forms, which resemble each other closely. I can relate to this somewhat, because I'm a dialect speaker myself and there is not set of rules or given spelling for the way the pronounciation is supposed to be written down. If you're trying to write down a dialect you just take a stab at it. Which is what these name look like to me. Now all we need is someone from Alessandria who speaks the local dialect to test this theory.
The model names of lobbia/homburgs and bowlers/melones are separate.
And finally there are the quality designations found on the liners.

More colours, misto felts, models and designations

View attachment 161750

The list doesn't include the felts, because there's some uncertainty about these refer to either the felt itself or to the finish of the hat. But for completists: I've found these felts:
nutria
castoro
martoro
aquila
lontra
visone.

Finishes are named specifically as well on a good number of hats. These names I've found so far:
serikon
diamante
angora
pesca
imperiale
silchi
mimosa
krystal
peluche
castoro.

There's a separate thread on the borsalino label lore, specifically the celled format (recommended). Generally the concensus for now seems to be for the labels:
* celled format: earliest form occuring in the earliest dated hats from the twenties (two different types)
* cerrated format with the borsalino name sideways: appears in the thirties (my theory would be after the GB Borsalino fu Lazzaro was taken over in 1936) up until the early fifties (there are known combinations with OPS tags)
* cerrated format without the borsalino name: appears in the early fifties (again: there are examples in combination with OPS tags) up until the late sixties
* rounded edge label: appears in the late sixties up until 1980. Usually has the colour name on it. These labels for several years hold the fabrication year as the first two numbers of the upper right label number.
* elongated rounded edge label: just holds codenumbers and size in lower right corner. Still in use today.

That's all you need to know for now. Test tomorrow:D

Stefan! Wow. You have done a great job documenting these colors and hats for prosperity. I have often wondered about the colors of Borsalinos. My hat is off to you Sir!
 
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18,379
Location
Nederland
Stefan! Wow. You have done a great job documenting these colors and hats for prosperity. I have often wondered about the colors of Borsalinos. My hat is off to you Sir!
Thanks, Dennis. This was the easy part. There's much more to unearth about the brand and with the help of the members here we may at least get closer to its secrets. The sheer number of colours is quite staggering though.
 

DRB

One Too Many
Messages
1,621
Location
Florida
Hey guys! New here and unsure where I should ask about my new Borsalino?
Hello Marcus,
You are in the right place. Welcome! These gentlemen have a vast knowledge of the subject. I'm not the one to ask, but they are watching :) What did you want to know?
 
Last edited:

Markus Rasmussen

New in Town
Messages
31
Location
Copenhagen
Hello Marcus,
You are in the right place. Welcome! These gentlemen have a vast knowledge of the subject. I'm not the one to ask, but they are watching :)

Thanks, DRB! So to keep it short I have a few Borsalinos already, but found a really interesting one two days ago, have not bought used before. Here are a few pictures. Could it be mole felt?
 

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Messages
18,379
Location
Nederland
Thanks, DRB! So to keep it short I have a few Borsalinos already, but found a really interesting one two days ago, have not bought used before. Here are a few pictures. Could it be mole felt?
Welcome to the lounge and to the Borsalino brotherhood, Markus. To answer your question: no. Talpa does mean mole, but the word refers to the colour of the ribbon on this hat and not to the felt. Not much fur to be had from a mole I'd suspect, although sometimes fairly small critters were used. Never moles though as far as I know.
Very good looking hat though and, depending on the price, certainly worth getting. Interesting colour too: M Magma. The M stands for Misto, meaning mixed, which refers to the felt. Nice.
 

Markus Rasmussen

New in Town
Messages
31
Location
Copenhagen
Thanks a lot for the answers, guys! I did take it down to Petitgas, the world's second oldest hat shop, 1857, located here in Copenhagen. They have sold Borsalino since 1872. He thought it was around 40 years old. I bought it at my favorite thrift shop for around 30 USD so I'm quite happy. I'll post a photo once I take one with me wearing it. Cheers!
 
Messages
18,379
Location
Nederland
Thanks a lot for the answers, guys! I did take it down to Petitgas, the world's second oldest hat shop, 1857, located here in Copenhagen. They have sold Borsalino since 1872. He thought it was around 40 years old. I bought it at my favorite thrift shop for around 30 USD so I'm quite happy. I'll post a photo once I take one with me wearing it. Cheers!
I'd buy those for $30 all day long. Good get.
 
Messages
19,001
Location
Central California
Thanks a lot for the answers, guys! I did take it down to Petitgas, the world's second oldest hat shop, 1857, located here in Copenhagen. They have sold Borsalino since 1872. He thought it was around 40 years old. I bought it at my favorite thrift shop for around 30 USD so I'm quite happy. I'll post a photo once I take one with me wearing it. Cheers!

If it’s a 61-62 I know how you can double your money. ;)


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Steve1857

I'll Lock Up
Messages
8,816
Location
Denmark
Thanks a lot for the answers, guys! I did take it down to Petitgas, the world's second oldest hat shop, 1857, located here in Copenhagen. They have sold Borsalino since 1872. He thought it was around 40 years old. I bought it at my favorite thrift shop for around 30 USD so I'm quite happy. I'll post a photo once I take one with me wearing it. Cheers!
Nice find, Markus, especially in such a large size. Did you buy it from Episode? Bernhard at Petitgas is always a joy to chat to. I have 4 hats from there, but many more vintage hats bought used (some NOS). You get some super quality hats that way.

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Markus Rasmussen

New in Town
Messages
31
Location
Copenhagen
Nice find, Markus, especially in such a large size. Did you buy it from Episode? Bernhard at Petitgas is always a joy to chat to. I have 4 hats from there, but many more vintage hats bought used (some NOS). You get some super quality hats that way.

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

Thanks! No, I got it at Kongens Klæ'r. Must look at Episode some day. Where else is it possible to find vintage hats here?
 

Steve1857

I'll Lock Up
Messages
8,816
Location
Denmark
Thanks! No, I got it at Kongens Klæ'r. Must look at Episode some day. Where else is it possible to find vintage hats here?
Episode has been quite disappointing over the last few months. I always check it out though.
I live in Helsingør where charity shops (genbrugsbutikker) have been a good place to find vintage hats. Likewise flea markets both small and large. There are mammoth ones at Forum and Bella Centre in Copenhagen.
For the best vintage hats though you can't beat some of the guys on the FL who are fellow collectors, but also buy and sell.

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Markus Rasmussen

New in Town
Messages
31
Location
Copenhagen
Episode has been quite disappointing over the last few months. I always check it out though.
I live in Helsingør where charity shops (genbrugsbutikker) have been a good place to find vintage hats. Likewise flea markets both small and large. There are mammoth ones at Forum and Bella Centre in Copenhagen.
For the best vintage hats though you can't beat some of the guys on the FL who are fellow collectors, but also buy and sell.

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

I went there yesterday, only got an ascot and a pair of brown brogues. The hats were all too small, often 57 and down. Various Stetson, Mayser and perhaps one or two Borsalino. I would like a lighter one for the summer, but have to keep looking. The charity shops have some hats here in the city, but also the small sizes. I tend to buy them and give them to my friend who's a hatter, mostly for women though. What size are you? I'm 61.5.
 

Steve1857

I'll Lock Up
Messages
8,816
Location
Denmark
I went there yesterday, only got an ascot and a pair of brown brogues. The hats were all too small, often 57 and down. Various Stetson, Mayser and perhaps one or two Borsalino. I would like a lighter one for the summer, but have to keep looking. The charity shops have some hats here in the city, but also the small sizes. I tend to buy them and give them to my friend who's a hatter, mostly for women though. What size are you? I'm 61.5.
That is a large size, Marcus. I very rarely if ever see them around in that size. I'm lucky. I'm an average 57 and a quarter. Some 57s I can stretch, some up to 58 I can put cork under the band so they fit more snuggly.
Have you tried the antique shops in Ryesgade? They have a few hats every now and then. I once saw a great looking Mayser Homburg in about your size. It was 1920s I believe. I was so tempted, but no amount of cork would have helped it fit me.

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Steve1857

I'll Lock Up
Messages
8,816
Location
Denmark
Hello gentlemen I am a first time poster. I wanted to know if this hat is beaver fur as specified by the seller? The seller stated they were told the hat was beaver by someone they purchased from. Thanks in advance.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-BO...595682?hash=item21539b1ee2:g:iKQAAOSwpa5cadBD
Hi HatMan25, welcome to the Fedora Lounge, and Borsalino Brotherhood. We'd need to see more photos of the hat in order to tell if it's beaver. The liner of the hat and labels under the sweatband would help. The E-bay posting has ended, however, so no help there. If it is beaver, it would more than likely say so on one of the labels. There would at least be clues. There's actually no way of telling if it's a Borsalino from that one photo.
Hope others can be of more help.

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HatMan25

New in Town
Messages
4
Thanks for the reply. I was the person who purchased the hat thankfully. It is a borsalino allesandria. Unfortunately the only tag i have seen in a private message was the color and the year. This hat was produced in 72. The label reads IOK30 Bismaye c/marine 72707. I will look for the other label and keep the forum updated when the hat arrives. If you click on the orinal listing you can also see more pictures.
 
Messages
18,379
Location
Nederland
Hello gentlemen I am a first time poster. I wanted to know if this hat is beaver fur as specified by the seller? The seller stated they were told the hat was beaver by someone they purchased from. Thanks in advance.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-BO...595682?hash=item21539b1ee2:g:iKQAAOSwpa5cadBD
Welcome to the lounge hatman25. Very nice Borsalino you've bought there and at a very good price too. Probably not beaver though. Borsalino did not use beaver felt very often and if so it would be marked on the hat's liner or sweatband as "castoro" or "beaver" if the hat was intended for the American market. The colour on the label is probably "bismuto" (not "bismaye"). The c/marine is the colour of the ribbon (the c stands for cinto: ribbon). Alessandria is the place where it was made and not the model name. It was produced in the "Augusta" production line, which is the emblem on the liner. I don't think it was produced in 1972, but earlier than that, most likely mid fifties to mid-sixties. Welcome to the Borsalino brotherhood too.
 

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