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The BORSALINO BROTHERHOOD

Daniele Tanto

I'll Lock Up
Messages
4,217
Location
Verona - Italia
I read with great interest the exchange of views on dating of Borsalino hats. I want to make some brief clarification in this regard. The oldest Italian hats I've seen, have a special feature: the internal label is pre-printed on paper and the data of the color and pattern are hand-written with a fountain pen. Borsalino have not a clear system whereby you can decipher the inner labels so you can only make assumptions.

Paratroopertim I’sorry but it is difficult to date your hat to the early 40. Italy is at war since June 10, 1940 and will remain belligerent until April 25, 1945. You see a fascist out with his wife and a similar model of hat? The hat in question is clearly a creation of 60-70 years. You can see from the typical form of Borsalino that, in those years, shortens the brims to become more attractive and follow a taste that has totally changed in Europe and in the United States is in the process of change.

Alan what you recognize: the fact that it is quite hard to find in the US market the products of Borsalino, before the Second World War, is a consequence that matches the taste and the different ways in which the hats are purchased and worn in the United States and in Europe. In the US there is a large representation (still is) that kind of hats, we Europeans defined western, here they do not exist. Your internal market was and is divided between these hats and those elegant and in twenty-thirties happens, looking at the photographs of the time, the transition in US where there is a greater diffusion of dress hats.

Borsalino exports to the United States during the fascist regime is not in my knowledge, so I can’t say for sure, but I think then the major markets of the “Casa di Alessandria” were Europeans. After World War II, the market Borsalino expands enormously in the United States, where the hats Italians are widely appreciated, but cost almost twice than those produced on site, for Borsalino politics "Hats top quality at high price" to which must be added the high import taxes, yet were massively imported into the US as super fine hats with great discontent of the American producers. There was also a great "invasion" of American tourists here in Italy in the post war years, and many of them brought home as a “souvenir d'Italie” the Borsalino rolled in small boxes (like those beautiful that you possess). They were (and are) aspired hats that cost less in Italy and occupied less space in the suitcase of a tourist, considered the magnificent felt with which they are made. Are rollable and pocketable, a priority in the Italian hat that has no counterpart in other parts of the world for reasons of construction and manner of dealing with the hats. These are the two main channels of entry in the United States of Borsalino after the end of the II WW.

For the purpose of better know the history of the Borsalino I posted a link http://www.isral.it/web/web/borsalino/menu.htm on this thread a few weeks ago where the Board of Directors of Borsalino from the year 1946 up to the 1970 trade talks in exports and relations with their biggest market : the United States of America. It can be an interesting read for understanding the "battle" protectionist operated by the US government and the resulting fears of the “Casa di Alessandria” for the turnover as the offer from the firm Stetson in 1960 even considered by the leaders of the Italian hat factory.

A final consideration on the availability of hats before World War II. In Europe, the war has passed like a huge scythe that has cut most of economy and civil society and the hats were, too, part of this destruction. Here in Italy is very hard to find hats of any manufacturer before the Second World War. In the United States, I think, the Italian hats of the 20s and 30s are very rare and often travelled with emigrants or visiting from relatives or arrived as early examples from export . Most of Borsalino sold in the United States and those brought by tourists belong mostly to the production starting in 1946.
 
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Messages
17,466
Location
Maryland
Thanks Steve! I believe it was purchased no later than 1961, as that is the year that Sanger Bros merged with A. Harris & Co to form Sanger-Harris department store. I have a Stratoliner from A. Harris & Co as well so I have a sample from each store pre merger!

I was joking about the 1960s dating (see posts on long hair black Black Borsalino)! My guess is early 1950s or older.


See above!
 
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besdor

Vendor/Sponsor
Messages
1,727
Location
up north
As far as I know, Borsalino started to sell in North America around 1909. There may have been two different distributors here as there were two separate lines being made in Italy. Believe it or not , most of the pre WW2 Borsalino hats that I have are from Canadian stores. I have a collapsible top hat that is pre 104- from B Altmans in NY. Soft hats from that era are rare. We were allowed to carry the brand until 1950!
 
Messages
17,466
Location
Maryland
In the United States, I think, the Italian hats of the 20s and 30s are very rare and often travelled with emigrants or visiting from relatives or arrived as early examples from export . Most of Borsalino sold in the United States and those brought by tourists belong mostly to the production starting in 1946.

Great overview! We know Borsalino hats were imported pre WII because there are advertisements (could be some in this thread) for the importers in the American Hatter. As I mentioned an old American market JHS or A. Peschel Velour (even pre WWI) will pop up on the rare occasion.

I have a few German market (Echter) Borsalinos that are probably from the 1930s but only one stiff felt that might go back to the 1920s. I have seen some older ones come up for auction (in bad condition) so I didn't bid. I saw one that was probably pre WWI with a hand written paper label. I also have advertisements for Borsalino German importers from the early 1900s. German hat trade journals from the time period constantly mention European trade issues (tariffs, duties) and labor costs. The countries were strongly protecting domestic markets. Italy had lower labor costs so it was impossible for German hat companies to export to Italy. The German companies mostly produce lower cost hats for their domestic market. The Austrian companies dominated at the high end (including Borsalino from Italy) of the German market.

The only German hat company I have seen pre WWII American importer / retail advertisements for was Mayser but they didn't make any impact. On the other hand the Austrian hat companies like J. Hückel´s Söhne, A. Peschel and P. & C. Habig Wien had success selling their Velour hats in America. I would expect Borsalino to about the same sales wise (maybe more) than the Austrian companies but so far no physical evidence.
 
Messages
17,466
Location
Maryland
As far as I know, Borsalino started to sell in North America around 1909. There may have been two different distributors here as there were two separate lines being made in Italy. Believe it or not , most of the pre WW2 Borsalino hats that I have are from Canadian stores. I have a collapsible top hat that is pre 104- from B Altmans in NY. Soft hats from that era are rare. We were allowed to carry the brand until 1950!

I was writing at the same time! :) I have an early 1900s P. & C. Habig Wien Derby made for B. Altmans NY. If possible post photos of the collapsible Borsalino Top hat.
 
Messages
15,073
Location
Buffalo, NY
Thanks for the rich discussion Daniele and Steve. With the breadth of American hat production in the 1920s and cost and speed of ocean transport, there probably was not much room for European makers' wares in the domestic market (the sophisticated velours being a lone example of something that could not be matched in domestic production.)

Steve, watch those jokes. :)
 

besdor

Vendor/Sponsor
Messages
1,727
Location
up north
The best way to see what brands were available here before WW2 would be to look at old issues of the American Hatter and Hat life. Borsalino regularly advertised there and that was about it with the exception of one or two smaller companies from Italy . It wasn't until the 1950's that Barbisio and Panizza started to sell here.
 
Messages
17,466
Location
Maryland
The best way to see what brands were available here before WW2 would be to look at old issues of the American Hatter and Hat life. Borsalino regularly advertised there and that was about it with the exception of one or two smaller companies from Italy . It wasn't until the 1950's that Barbisio and Panizza started to sell here.

Yes the American Hatter had advertisements also article mentions. It would be great if we could find copies of this publication.

7798322186_e7f17040a7_o.png


I have digital copies of some of the editions of Deutsche Hutmacher-Zeitung and Österreichisch-ungarische Hutmacher-Zeitung. I have looked over copies of the Hatter's Gazette (Britain) at the Library of Congress.

http://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/107-international-hat-trade-papers-1898-99/#entry640
 
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Messages
17,466
Location
Maryland
Thanks for the rich discussion Daniele and Steve. With the breadth of American hat production in the 1920s and cost and speed of ocean transport, there probably was not much room for European makers' wares in the domestic market (the sophisticated velours being a lone example of something that could not be matched in domestic production.)

Steve, watch those jokes. :)

Definitely! :)

Yes it was difficult to compete with American domestic producers. The European market was especially cut throat. I have posted some information on this situation (here and on my site).
 
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Daniele Tanto

I'll Lock Up
Messages
4,217
Location
Verona - Italia
Many thanks Carouselvic and all the contributors!
I'm searching what Besdor suggests, but I'm not so lucky.
I have a question for the main Borsalino seller in US: who was the seller (s) in USA before the 1950?
 

besdor

Vendor/Sponsor
Messages
1,727
Location
up north
It was Bill and Caldwell. They were the second distributor from the 1920's until the 1960's. After that the distribution was taken over by George Sternaker (nephew of Arthur Sternaker who worked for Bills and Caldwell). The warehouse was in Boonton NJ. They distributed Borsalino, Habig, Joseph Ward, Mayser and Huckel.
Those were the days!!!!!
 

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