The Anglo-Irish War (1919-1921) and Irish Civil War

[Kitty_Sheridan]

There was a chap selling reproduction Republican badges at War And Peace in Kent. I noticed he also sold SS memorabilia which sort of offended me! I'm from the south and my family suffered badly in the troubles. My father lost his sister Roisin to Scarlet Fever as they were under curfew and his father was not allowed to go out to fetch a doctor. His mother was very bitter about that. But, my father joined the RAF and served for over 30 years so he didn't share his mother's bitterness. It's something that I would be interested in portraying and there are many others here in the UK.

I dont understand people wanting to reenact The Gulf War or Afghanistan but they do. The repro uniforms are on Ebay by the way.

Kate

 

[Miss Golightly]

I am currently sorting out my Mum and Dad's photo album - trying to put it into some order and came across this photo - as far as I can remember these are my Grandfather's friends who were in the original IRA - I'm not sure what year it was taken and I believe my Grandfather is not in the photo - he could have taken it. I really should ask my Mum for more info on this photo and on him - sorry the quality is not the best - it's a photo of a photo (I don't have a scanner - and am also a bit of a Luddite!) but you get the idea:

 

[Blackthorn]

I am currently sorting out my Mum and Dad's photo album - trying to put it into some order and came across this photo - as far as I can remember these are my Grandfather's friends who were in the original IRA - I'm not sure what year it was taken and I believe my Grandfather is not in the photo - he could have taken it. I really should ask my Mum for more info on this photo and on him - sorry the quality is not the best - it's a photo of a photo (I don't have a scanner - and am also a bit of a Luddite!) but you get the idea:

Wow, that's an incredible picture!!

 

[PADDY]

That could easily be a Prohibition Era photo from the States.

 

[Story]

I really should ask my Mum for more info on this photo and on him - sorry the quality is not the best - it's a photo of a photo (I don't have a scanner - and am also a bit of a Luddite!) but you get the idea:

Miss G - Thanks for sharing that, please do ask your mom for more information. If you do find a friend who'll scan it in for you, we'd all appreciate it.

From left to right, what can be made out : 1. Model 1921 Thompson (aka "Irish Sword") and probably holstered Mk VI Webley, 2. probably an Enfield #III (note the rear sight protector), 3. 1903 cartridge belt?, 4. Sam Browne belt w/ hidden holster, 5. not an Enfield - muzzle of a Mauser, perhaps one of the M1904 Steyrs smuggled in, and 6. another suspected holstered Mk VI Webley

 

[Edward]

Gents - just tread lightly, using discretion , sensitivity and common sense please on this subject area. Be mindful that it's a raw and divisive subject in that "the fallout" of the era you refer to, is still being felt with lives being endangered and taken (currently) on that island.
Just "be aware" please Gents - Thankyou

Quite. Alas, it does look rather like there are those very keen to stir it all up again over there. Tellingly, it seems they are mostly kids too young to remember what it was like in the bad old days.

Think they might have done Edward, I'm having the devil of a time finding the website - Ironically, I encountered it while searching for 1920s British uniforms (and no, not for Tans or Auxies)! It did German stuff for both wars and Irish stuff. Now that I'm searching for it specifically, the search engine is turning up nothing! I swear I saw it only around a week ago!


Edit: found it

http://ww2depot.com/irish-war-of-independence-and-1916/

Thanks, I'll look into that. The ICA have long fascinated me, the Irish situation being one of those atypical instances where the hard left and nationalism became bedfellows in a way that is very rarely seen elsewhere.

Black Rock Pictures are currently in pre-production with Irish language historical series, ‘Bású na gCarad’ which will examine the executions of Erskine Childers and several other prisoners during the Irish civil war. The 6 x 30 minute docu-drama series for TG4 is set to shoot around Ireland for ten weeks, starting in July.
Directed and produced by Jerry O’Callaghan (Broken Harvest), the series will examine the executions of several prominent Irish personalities during the Irish civil war. Episodes 1 and 2 of the series will centre around Irish nationalist, Erskine Childers who was executed in November 1922. Following this there will be one episode dedicated to of four other reputed Irish political figures including Rory O’Connor, Liam Mellows, Joe McKelvey and Dick Barrett.

http://www.iftn.ie/news/?act1=record&only=1&aid=73&rid=4283738&tpl=archnews&force=1

There's an amusing end for Childers.... He was, of course, an Englishman who became wedded to the Irish cause, even fighting on the anti-Treaty side during the Civil War. It seems somehow fitting that his end should be remembered in the Irish language! I'd like to see those, though I do hope they're subtitled for those of who don't speak so much Gaelic (I know about three words myself, and two of those are Sinn Fein... ).

An interesting article on Dev.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-12848272

Whatever position people take on deValera, he was certainly a master politician behind the scenes. It was also claimed in recent years that he went so far as to be a British double-agent, but I've not seen any convincing evidence for that.

There was a chap selling reproduction Republican badges at War And Peace in Kent. I noticed he also sold SS memorabilia which sort of offended me! I'm from the south and my family suffered badly in the troubles. My father lost his sister Roisin to Scarlet Fever as they were under curfew and his father was not allowed to go out to fetch a doctor. His mother was very bitter about that. But, my father joined the RAF and served for over 30 years so he didn't share his mother's bitterness. It's something that I would be interested in portraying and there are many others here in the UK.

I have mixed feelings about the SS stuff myself. The Algemeine stuff is extremely tasteless, the Waffen.... well, that is a much more complicated thing, it seems to me, with them having fought alongside the regular Wehrmacht. I'm all for all "sides" being portrayed when it comes to WW2 re-enactment. To be honest, though, my bigger concern with that sort of thing is more often the attitude of the persons selling such items that the stuff itself. I required a Swastika Eagle for a costume some years ago, and declined to buy from several sources simply because they appeared uncomfortably close to approving of the ideology rather than facilitating historical pursuits.

I dont understand people wanting to reenact The Gulf War or Afghanistan but they do. The repro uniforms are on Ebay by the way.

Kate

Jinkies, already? Now that is too soon for me!

I am currently sorting out my Mum and Dad's photo album - trying to put it into some order and came across this photo - as far as I can remember these are my Grandfather's friends who were in the original IRA - I'm not sure what year it was taken and I believe my Grandfather is not in the photo - he could have taken it. I really should ask my Mum for more info on this photo and on him - sorry the quality is not the best - it's a photo of a photo (I don't have a scanner - and am also a bit of a Luddite!) but you get the idea:

Fascinating photo. Very typical of the IRA from 1919 onwards, too. If they were specifically Ra, this photo would have been taken at some point from early 1919 (when the First Dail, which met unofficially on the same day the War of Independence began, recognised the re-organised Irish Volunteers as its official army). If they were Pro-Treaty Free-Staters, then from early 1922 they would have been in Free State uniform, which puts this to a specific window. If anti-Treaty, this could have been taken at any time up to mid 1923.

The original Irish Volunteers, the ICA, and other groups had uniforms, but by the time the War of Independence kicked off in Tipperary in January 1919, the Ra had other things on their minds. Supplies of uniforms wouldn't have been so easy to arrange, and in any case they were fighting a guerilla war in which being able to melt back into the civilian crowd was a tremendous advantage. Long coats, trench coats and so on were typical. Most of the photos I have seen of the IRA from that period also tend to show relatively few of them in brimmed hats. Flatcaps were more common, I suppose partly a 'working class' thing, and partly practicality in the windy Irish hills, waiting to spring an ambush on the other side... Sam Brown belts were very common among IRA members in those days.

Miss G - Thanks for sharing that, please do ask your mom for more information. If you do find a friend who'll scan it in for you, we'd all appreciate it.

From left to right, what can be made out : 1. Model 1921 Thompson (aka "Irish Sword") and probably holstered Mk VI Webley, 2. probably an Enfield #III (note the rear sight protector), 3. 1903 cartridge belt?, 4. Sam Browne belt w/ hidden holster, 5. not an Enfield - muzzle of a Mauser, perhaps one of the M1904 Steyrs smuggled in, and 6. another suspected holstered Mk VI Webley

Mausers were very common in that period in Ireland. Both Irish Volunteers and, in the North, the Ulster Volunteers (later subsumed into the British Army as the 36th Ulster Division, a very significant proportion of whom were slaughtered in the Somme), ran guns in from Germany. Another popular weapon among the IRA was the broom-handled Mauser pistol. High chance there's at least one in this picture, out of sight. A lot of captured British army weapons were also pressed into service.

 

[Miss Golightly]

You're all very welcome! I will try to get the photo scanned - it's in good condition so should come out well.

I was talking to my Mum this morning and she said the photo is not of my Grandfather's friends but of her Uncle Christy, his friend Christy Gorman and their friends and he is somewhere in the photo (she would have to see it to point him out). She said my Grandfather was in the GPO on O'Connell Street during The Rising, was captured and was imprisoned (perhaps in Mountjoy although Arbour Hill rings a bell with me) - my brother has his release certificate - it is slightly damaged to an incredible piece of history to have.

Edward - you clearly know your stuff!!!!!

My Mum reckons the photo was indeed taken around 1919. She said that she didn't have too many stories about these men or times but was telling about her Aunt who was dating a man (Leslie Somebody) who was "running with the hares and hunting with the hounds" - he was warned to leave Dublin by the IRA but ended up being shot dead in Stoneybatter. The Black & Tans burst into her Aunt's house one night (perhaps looking for him) and tore the place apart - all very, very scary. She said her Mother had so many amazing stories of the times but as she was only a child at the time she had no interest - she's sorry she didn't pay more attention!

 

[PADDY]

The ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY (R.I.C). Some photos you might be interested in (a Historian friend of mine is working on a history of this Police Force which helped keep the rule of law in Ireland, prior to the partition).

 

[Edward]

Great photos, Paddy. That'd be an interesting read, I'm sure. The RIC often get forgotten in the middle of the Ra and the British army in that period, but they were a really important part of the story. Local boys, too, which gave it an extra dimension.

You're all very welcome! I will try to get the photo scanned - it's in good condition so should come out well.

I was talking to my Mum this morning and she said the photo is not of my Grandfather's friends but of her Uncle Christy, his friend Christy Gorman and their friends and he is somewhere in the photo (she would have to see it to point him out). She said my Grandfather was in the GPO on O'Connell Street during The Rising, was captured and was imprisoned (perhaps in Mountjoy although Arbour Hill rings a bell with me) - my brother has his release certificate - it is slightly damaged to an incredible piece of history to have.

Jinkies, I hope as much as can be of his story gets recorded. It's that 'on the ground' level that all too often gets forgotten and lost to history, not least when you're looking at the sort of organisation that wasn't always technically "official", and thus records tend to be sparse. My mother taught history for years, and one thing she did (I must see if I can get hold of a copy) was go around and interview a bunch of old boys round Larne who had been involved in or at least around at the time of the Larne Gun Running with the UVF. Important, eye-witness stories.... those boys were well on in years when she did that in 86; they're all gone now.

Edward - you clearly know your stuff!!!!!

Ah, just a hobbyhorse of mine, really - I studied Irish history at school. We did cover the 1870ish-1972 period at GCSE, though at A level, and again, from a legal history perspective, as an undergraduate, I specialised in the 1912-23 period. Fascinating stuff. I've been down and visited the GPO, though I've yet to get myself to Kilmainham Gaol.

 

[Corto]

Fascinating thread folks. I've always been fascinated by modern Irish history, particularly all the various periods and permutations of conflict. Here in the United States it's not a subject that's widely known beyond what Hollywood gives us. Thanks for the reading suggestions.

 

[ÉIREGOBRÁCH1922]

An Garda Síochána na hÉireann.

An Garda Síochána na hÉireann - Guardians of the Peace, of Ireland.
replaced the old R.I.C.

The Civic Guard was formed by the Provisional Government in February 1922 to take over the responsibility of policing the fledgling Irish Free State. It replaced the Royal Irish Constabulary (RIC) and the Irish Republican Police of 1919-1922. In August 1922 the force accompanied Michael Collins when he met the Lord Lieutenant in Dublin Castle.

The Garda Síochána (Temporary Provisions) Act 1923 enacted after the creation of the Irish Free State on 8 August 1923, provided for the creation of "a force of police to be called and known as 'The Garda Síochána'". Under section 22, The Civic Guard were deemed to have been established under and to be governed by the Act. The law therefore effectively renamed the existing force.

During the Civil War of 1922-23, the new Free State set up the Criminal Investigation Department as an armed, plain-clothed counter-insurgency unit. It was disbanded after the end of the war in October 1923 and elements of it were absorbed into the Dublin Metropolitan Police.

In Dublin, policing remained the responsibility of the Dublin Metropolitan Police (DMP, founded 1836) until it merged with the Garda Síochána in 1925. Since then the Garda has been the only police force in the state now known as the Republic of Ireland, with the exception of the Military Police within the Irish Defence Forces, the Airport Police, and Dublin Port and Dún Laoghaire Harbour police forces.

Old 'Garda' helmets I have as above: The helmet with white-metal/silver badge (day badge) & finial were for day patrols and the helmet with the black-metal badge (night badge) was worn for night patrols only. These 'cork' made custodian or centurion helmets (nicknamed: bobby or bell-shaped helmets) were previously worn by the Old R.I.C. & were adopted by An Garda Síochána, who then wore/issued them from 1922 until the 1950's, when they were then in turn replaced by peaked caps for all ranks. These helmets were and still are the standard British Police Force 'Bobby/bell-shaped' issue helmet. Although, modern U.K. Police Forces in-the-most now wear a shorter hardened ABS Plastic helmet instead of the older higher peaked crown cork made helmet.

See more history at http://www.esatclear.ie/~garda/

 

[Edward]

Those early Garda uniforms are really interesting... hat always intrigues me too is that like so much of the operation of the new Free State from '22, they're so little different from what went before, simply rebadged. Ironically, the Garda uniforms continued for a very long time to have far less difference to the British police uniforms than did the RUC uniforms in the North. The biggest difference, though, as I recall between the Garda and the old RIC was that the latter were armed as standard, the former not. That must have been quite a shift; I've often wondered whether that affected crime statistics (i.e. did criminal elements feel they coule get away with more with an unarmed police force). I've never got the length of looking into that, though.

 

[Blackthorn]

Interesting post, Eiregobrach1922. Can I call you Eire for short?

 

[ÉIREGOBRÁCH1922]

Interesting post, Eiregobrach1922. Can I call you Eire for short?

John or Éire is fine with me!

The Old R.I.C. helmets in general were more decorative. The R.I.C. uniform also tended to look more militaritistic. Much more pomp and ceremony with the obvious British Military influence at the time in Ireland prior to 1921/2.

Certainly the finials were more ornate than the those on the Garda issue helmets. Although, some of the early Garda finials were quite decorative in their own right. The finials became less ornate and went from ball point to be repaced by rose top finials, until eventually the helmets became obsolete in the 1960's.

The D.M.P. - Dublin Metropolitan Police remained a seperate force from the Civil Guard (which was Established in 1922 and which was a year later in 1923 renamed An Garda Síochána na hÉireann) until 1925 when it was amalgamated with An Garda Siochana. See D.M.P. helmet below here.

It is quite possible that the early Garda cork helmets were indeed older R.I.C. helmets that had simply been rebadged with Garda helmet plates, hence why the early Garda helmets had more ornate finials like those of the previous R.I.C. helmets. And in turn when newer helmets were specifically made for/issued to An Garda Síochána with Garda badges, the finials became less ornate over the years. Compare the finials on the helmets in all the photos I added. The earlier R.I.C. helmets had more military influenced spike point and later ball top shaped finials. Whereas the Garda helmets went from ball point to rose top finials.

 

[Blackthorn]

I see you live in Kilkenny, John. I love that old downtown area there. There's so much history in Kilkenny.

 

[ÉIREGOBRÁCH1922]

I see you live in Kilkenny, John. I love that old downtown area there. There's so much history in Kilkenny.

Yes, Kilkenny is a nice small Medieval City with tons of history. Glad you like it!

 

[Story]

A rifle smuggled into Northern Ireland nearly a century ago by the old UVF has been uncovered in a Belfast attic in pristine condition.
The gun, believed to be a M1904 Mannlicher rifle smuggled in during the Larne gun-running of April 1914, was found in the roofspace of the house alongside a small pistol — and bullets for both guns.

Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...-in-belfast-attic-16072349.html#ixzz1yLH4ffSr

DIVERS YESTERDAY recovered two anchors from the wreck of German vessel the Aud used in a foiled attempt to smuggle some 20,000 rifles to the Irish Volunteers for the Easter Rising of 1916.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0620/1224318257419.html

 

[Blackthorn]

Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...-in-belfast-attic-16072349.html#ixzz1yLH4ffSr

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0620/1224318257419.html

Very interesting, Story, thanks for posting this info.

 

[Miss Golightly]

My Grandfather was in the DMP and whilst doing some family research we discovered that he is mentioned in Ulysses by James Joyce:

“I was just passing the time of day with old Troy of the D.M.P. at the corner of Arbour hill there and be damned but a bloody sweep came along and he near drove his gear into my eye” (Joyce, 240).

"Old Troy" was my Grandfather. I believe there is book being written about real life characters who appear in Ulysses and the author was in contact with my brother who was researching our family tree. My Aunt has a photo of my Grandfather (and in it he may be in his DMP uniform) but we're waiting for her to unearth it - she has been unwell for a while so we haven't asked her more about it. Hopefully some day we'll get a chance to see it again.

 

[Story]

My Grandfather was in the DMP and whilst doing some family research we discovered that he is mentioned in Ulysses by James Joyce

A belatedly peculiar Bloomsday to you.