The Anglo-Irish War (1919-1921) and Irish Civil War

[Norumbega]

Maybe you know this, but that's actually a Lewis Gun, a WWI light machine gun.

-Dave

Precisely David.............Irish......potato.......Never mind, I think it fizzled.

 

[WinoJunko]

This is a bit of history I've always been interested in. Its cool to see reenactment groups for it so that way more people can learn about it.

 

[Corky]

"To Hell or Barbados" is a must-read book...

"To Hell or Barbados" is a must-read book for anyone interested in the history of Ireland.

The nonfiction book "To Hell or Barbados: The Ethnic Cleansing of Ireland" by Sean O'Callaghan describes a sad period in history that is generally ignored by historians. In the seventeenth century, Oliver Cromwell encouraged the mass slaughter, enslavement, and deportation of Irish men, women, and children for various reasons, the primary one being that the Protestant English overclass regarded the Catholic Irish as subhuman and not christian.

During this period, the entire British Slave Fleet was diverted from their triangular course from England to West Africa to the New World to transport the captive Irishmen to the New World as "Indentured Servants". (This is why Marcus Garvey put the symbolic Irish Green on the Black Liberation flag - Garvey considered the what the Irish had suffered had made them brothers in the struggle for equality.)

Irish priests were hunted down like wolves and Irish soldiers exiled to Spain or France, while rebels and widows alike were forcibly sent to Barbados in the Caribbean as indentured servants or slaves. People were sent to Hell (the mainland or "Virginia" plantations) or to Barbados (slang for any of the islands) to work on the sugar plantations. This book chronicles what happened to them. Beatings, whippings, torture, rape, and humiliation were just some of the terrible indecencies that these people suffered because they were Catholic and Irish.

The narrative moves from Cromwell's invasion and occupation of Ireland (including the ethnic cleansing of the Six Counties and re-population with Scots-Irish Protestants) to the treatment of the surviving Irish and deportation to the Caribbean and the modern-day descendants of the Irish on Barbados. In between, you will get a detailed and informative account of life in Ireland during the seventeenth century while at war in the UK and as plantation owners and slaves in the Caribbean. There is even a chapter on Irish buccaneers.

The book also explains how all these poor white people got transported to the American South (along with their Celtic music and taste for whiskey) and how they subsequently became a perpetual underclass.

 

[Corky]

"To Hell or Barbados" is a must-read book...

See the review above.

 

[Norumbega]

I don't wish to drift this thread any further away from it's intended topic, but I would be remiss not to piggy-back off your recommendation on into the 19th century with a book which is another great read by a personal favorite, Maine author and native James Mundy, and his book (possibly out of stock), "Hard Times, Hard Men," the story of the Irish in Maine from 1830-1860. Published by Harp Publications, Cape Elizabeth.

A phenomenal read and after I put it down all I could remember saying was, "I had no idea......"

 

[dr greg]

check it

This is a bit of history I've always been interested in. Its cool to see reenactment groups for it so that way more people can learn about it.

Me also, due to me fahmily bein Oirish on side, this is a good resource

http://libraryautomation.com/nymas/irishcivilwar.html

 

[Story]

Me also, due to me fahmily bein Oirish on side, this is a good resource http://libraryautomation.com/nymas/irishcivilwar.html

Small World Factor : I've known Paul Walsh for the last 20 years and rode shotgun with him up to NYC when he first delivered that paper to NYMAS.

 

[cookie]

"To Hell or Barbados" is a must-read book for anyone interested in the history of Ireland.

The nonfiction book "To Hell or Barbados: The Ethnic Cleansing of Ireland" by Sean O'Callaghan describes a sad period in history that is generally ignored by historians. In the seventeenth century, Oliver Cromwell encouraged the mass slaughter, enslavement, and deportation of Irish men, women, and children for various reasons, the primary one being that the Protestant English overclass regarded the Catholic Irish as subhuman and not christian.

During this period, the entire British Slave Fleet was diverted from their triangular course from England to West Africa to the New World to transport the captive Irishmen to the New World as "Indentured Servants". (This is why Marcus Garvey put the symbolic Irish Green on the Black Liberation flag - Garvey considered the what the Irish had suffered had made them brothers in the struggle for equality.)

Irish priests were hunted down like wolves and Irish soldiers exiled to Spain or France, while rebels and widows alike were forcibly sent to Barbados in the Caribbean as indentured servants or slaves. People were sent to Hell (the mainland or "Virginia" plantations) or to Barbados (slang for any of the islands) to work on the sugar plantations. This book chronicles what happened to them. Beatings, whippings, torture, rape, and humiliation were just some of the terrible indecencies that these people suffered because they were Catholic and Irish.

The narrative moves from Cromwell's invasion and occupation of Ireland (including the ethnic cleansing of the Six Counties and re-population with Scots-Irish Protestants) to the treatment of the surviving Irish and deportation to the Caribbean and the modern-day descendants of the Irish on Barbados. In between, you will get a detailed and informative account of life in Ireland during the seventeenth century while at war in the UK and as plantation owners and slaves in the Caribbean. There is even a chapter on Irish buccaneers.

The book also explains how all these poor white people got transported to the American South (along with their Celtic music and taste for whiskey) and how they subsequently became a perpetual underclass.

Of course it did not end there because they died like flies from msiotreatment and the weather and this was one of the reasons for the import of ''hardier' Africans who were even more poorly treated. Barbados would today be a predominately white country if the Irish had survived en masse.

The Irish have a long history of mercenary recruitment. The Louisiana Purchase territories (when owned briefly by Spain) were in great measure garrisoned with Irish trrops from the Irish regiments specially recruited into the Spanish army. You see Irish mercenaries in the book El Cid.

The French General MacMahon that commanded the French in the Franco-Prussian War of 1870 was descended from these Irish refugees.

 

[Story]

Barbados would today be a predominately white country if the Irish had survived en masse.

I just had a fleeting mental image of Irish dreadlocks.

The Irish have a long history of mercenary recruitment.

As well as 'official' mercenarism, where the waves of immigrants where recruited right off the boats during the Mexican-American and Civil Wars.

 

[cookie]

I just had a fleeting mental image of Irish dreadlocks.



As well as 'official' mercenarism, where the waves of immigrants where recruited right off the boats during the Mexican-American and Civil Wars.

Anthony Quinn the actor's father was one wasn't he?

 

[Mojito]

As well as 'official' mercenarism, where the waves of immigrants where recruited right off the boats during the Mexican-American and Civil Wars.

Like many of the unfortunate CSS Hunley's first crew - they had arrived in New Orleans before the war, and enlisted in the Confederate Navy...only to drown as a result of an accident when the submarine dove with hatches still open.

 

[Norumbega]

True. The Hunley which was recovered in Charleston harbor a while back went down after putting a hole in the U.S.S. Housatonic, which sank not only it, but the Hunley as well. The charge, which allegedly had been strapped on a long pole, was too close to the sub, sinking it with all hands.
Hard to believe that the first submarine built for military purposes, was built in 1776 by David Bushnell. For those that may be interested, this has a brief overview of the creation of the submarine. http://www.didyouknow.org/submarine.htm

At any road, horrible way to go...

 

[cookie]

I just had a fleeting mental image of Irish dreadlocks.

Over 50,000 people were sent to Barbados to work on the sugar plantations.

 

[Madcap72]

The book "1921" by Morgan Llywelyn is a great book that places fictional events during the civil war. She also has a similar book "1916".

They are GREAT reads as fiction alone, but the fact they are set with real history as the back drop gives a greater (chilling) insight into some of that history (including the style of hat of the times ). I beleive it makes it a bit easier to understand some of the issues than straight from non-fiction history books.

Since I pulled the book from the self to figure out how to spell the authors last name, I might as well read it again...

 

[Edward]

In the seventeenth century, Oliver Cromwell encouraged the mass slaughter, enslavement, and deportation of Irish men, women, and children for various reasons, the primary one being that the Protestant English overclass regarded the Catholic Irish as subhuman and not christian.

Worth noting that Cromwell was equally vicious with all Non-Anglicans - all non-comformists had the same lack of rights prior to the Emanciplation Act in the latter 19th Century. Cromwell's troops (whether under his direct orders or acting on their own initiative, I know not) smashed all the stained glass windows out of the Anglo-Norman church St Nicholas in Carrickfergus (itself Anglican, but clearly in the Puritan's eyes given to idolatory).

I just had a fleeting mental image of Irish dreadlocks.

Oh, those exist. Usually accessorised with rather musty army surplus clothing and an Alsatian dog on a piece of string.

 

[Story]

Historian probes Liverpool's links to IRA
By Runcorn And Widnes Weekly News on Feb 26, 09 01:41 PM in 2000 onwards
http://blogs.chesterchronicle.co.uk/cheshire-memories/2009/02/historian-probes-liverpools-li.html

IAN McKeane, a recognised authority on Ireland and its troubled past, gave Runcorn Historical Society members an insight into The IRA and Liverpool at their February meeting.

A lecturer in Irish studies at Liverpool University, the speaker's specialist knowledge attracts post graduate students from all over the world, sometimes from as far away as Hawaii as well as Spanish and German students taking their MA.

It was Mr McKeane' second visit to the history society following his appearance more than 12 months ago when he dealt with the Irish Potato Famine.

He concentrated his latest talk on the growth of the IRA in Liverpool and the sequence of events between 1919 and 1923, including the rescue of De Valera from Lincoln Jail in February 1919 and the role of Michael Collins in Liverpool.

In 1920 there were plans to attack Liverpool Docks but these were thwarted, the plans being captured and published by the police.

The next year there were arson attacks on a Cheshire farm and also lodging house raids.

The same year, telephone lines were cut in Wirral and Liverpool, there were 13 farm attacks in Liverpool and Wirral districts and attacks on relatives of Black and Tans or police auxiliaries.

Thompson sub machine guns were discovered and in 1922 Lancashire coal mines were raided for explosives.

In one earlier incident, in 1920, some 19 warehouses were burned in Liverpool.
Liverpool's role in the IRA came to a close when the Irish civil war ended in 1923.

"But," the speaker concluded, "Liverpool's activity had been as high as that in London."

 

[Story]

http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/835...A50471BAAE0D5EF091C44B88533B15A5397277B4DC33E

The five surviving Royal Irish Constabulary members after their barracks at Kilmallock, County Limerick, Ireland, was attacked by the IRA (Irish Republican Army) on 28th May 1920. Left to right: Constables Feehy and Holmes, Sergeant O'Sullivan and Constables Bailie and Barry. Two men were killed in a fire caused by IRA incendiary devices before O'Sullivan led the remaining men in a bayonet charge on the republicans.

From this neat site
http://www.jamd.com/image/g/83513327

 

[Chas]

No Black And Tan Reenactors, I suppose. No, I guess not.

 

[Mojito]

Historian probes Liverpool's links to IRA
By Runcorn And Widnes Weekly News on Feb 26, 09 01:41 PM in 2000 onwards
http://blogs.chesterchronicle.co.uk/cheshire-memories/2009/02/historian-probes-liverpools-li.html

IAN McKeane, a recognised authority on Ireland and its troubled past, gave Runcorn Historical Society members an insight into The IRA and Liverpool at their February meeting.

Fascinating stuff, Story.

One of those little projects I've often meant to engage with has been to explore the IRA's connections during the War of Independence with merchant shipping. There are frequent tantalising references to friendly crew smuggling prominent figures from the Irish nationalist side to America as needed by signing them on as crew. I think it was Frank O'Connor, a participant and early historian of the period, who made tantalising references to a friendly bosun who would find employment on his ship (the White Star Line's Celtic? I'd have to check it) for men who needed to cross the pond. The Lapland is another vessel that has been specifically mentioned in connection with getting men to America as needed. From memory, it was in a similar manner that de Valera was smuggled out of the UK and Ireland following his escape from Lincoln gaol. I don't know if anyone has yet done the work on the crew agreements to identify the name he signed up under - I'd love to track down the original agreements, either in the UK or Newfoundland where so many are archived. Come to think of it, I haven't even done the basic Ellis Island database search.

I'm pleased to see that Ian McKeane is giving this particular facet of the period his attention.

 

[Story]

No Black And Tan Reenactors, I suppose. No, I guess not.

Apparently not, and yet that is an integral part of the story, isn't it?

Since they wore khaki army trousers, it's just a matter of finding some dark green RIC or blue British police surplus tunics, caps and belts. There was a smallish-sized dark blue RIC tunic (with Schuylkill Arsenal buttons on the tail!) that went for over $300 US on evilbay.

I know of a reenacting-grade RIC carbine for sale in the US, if anyone's interested.

nb: this puts Chas' photo into context.
http://www.irish-society.org/Hedgemaster Archives/black-tans.htm
On June 17, 1920, Lt. Col. Smyth was appointed division commander of the RIC for Munster. Below is part of his speech to his constables:

"....If a police barracks is burned or if the barracks already occupied is not suitable, then the best house in the locality is to be commandeered, the occupants thrown into the gutter. Let them die there - the more the merrier. Police and military will patrol the country at least five nights a week. They are not to confine themselves to the main roads, but make across the country, lie in ambush and, when civilians are seen approaching, shout "Hands up!" Should the order be not immediately obeyed, shoot and shoot with effect. If the persons approaching carry their hands in their pockets, or are in any way suspicious-looking, shoot them down. You may make mistakes occasionally and innocent persons may be shot, but that cannot be helped, and you are bound to get the right parties some time. The more you shoot, the better I will like you, and I assure you no policeman will get into trouble for shooting any man ..."