The A-1 pockets

[Edward]

My problem with using goat or horse to make an A-1 is that the drape of these leathers seems not to work well with the A-1's design. Well-worn capeskin just has a unique, casual drape that I'm used to seeing when I look at an A-1. If it isn't there, the jacket screams “reproduction” to me.

Not trying to start an argument…just saying that, to me, the drape of the leather is as important as the size and shape of the pockets.

AF

Fair point - for me the goat would be close enough, but I agree about the importance of drape. I'm the same in my preference of hide for the Highwayman.

 

[Atticus Finch]

Fair point - for me the goat would be close enough, but I agree about the importance of drape. I'm the same in my preference of hide for the Highwayman.

Yeah. Some nice, thin, veggie-tanned goat like they once used to make the old Navy M jackets would probably make a pretty darn decent A-1.

AF

 

[Edward]

Yeah. Some nice, thin, veggie-tanned goat like they once used to make the old Navy M jackets would probably make a pretty darn decent A-1.

AF

Yes. Of my goat jackets, the Aeros are probably a bit too heavy for the correct drape, but whatever the details of the goat hide used in the Wested Raiders is would be ideal. Drapes like lamb, but doesn't give me the same fear I'll tear it if I touch anything.

 

[John Lever]

Yes, durability is a concern. That's why we offer the A-1 in horsehide too, just as the Japanese firms are doing.

Capeskin was used because it has fire resistant properties. It is still used today in specialist glove manufacture because of it's toughness and thinness. The most expensive driving/racing gloves and welding gloves are made from Capeskin,it is thin very strong but does not reduce sensitivity due to thickness. It has very little grain unlike sheepskin leather that has the characteristic ribbing and pebbling found in older animals particularly around the neck area.
Remember in the 1930's the number of aircrew were minute compared to those in WW2 when there were hundreds of thousands of jackets made.

 

[andyfalzon]

where do you find this info?

 

[John Lever]

where do you find this info?

I assumed everyone knew this....

 

[andyfalzon]

Capeskin was used because it has fire resistant properties. It is still used today in specialist glove manufacture because of it's toughness and thinness. The most expensive driving/racing gloves and welding gloves are made from Capeskin,it is thin very strong but does not reduce sensitivity due to thickness. It has very little grain unlike sheepskin leather that has the characteristic ribbing and pebbling found in older animals particularly around the neck area.
Remember in the 1930's the number of aircrew were minute compared to those in WW2 when there were hundreds of thousands of jackets made.

Fire resistance is mainly a factor of tanning. Veg tanned is more fire resistant than chrome tanned. I would not say that capeskin is particularly tough. Actually, because it is not tough, tanneries usually make it 0.8mm thickness and above, because if thinner will be easily torn. (Other hides can go down to 0.6-0.7mm). If you say that capeskin has very little grain, then you confuse it for something else.

 

[John Lever]

I think there is general confusion between sheep leather and Capeskin. Cape is thin and very even not thick and very ribbed..yes there are old jackets with loads of grain but are these Capeskin or just sheep leather ? Mutton was a very popular meat because of the relative cheapness so skins would have been plentiful. Today the skins from sheep slaughtered for meat are classified as toxic waste. That is why it is very difficult to buy hides that match WW2 RAF jacket hides as the ones from the tanneries are from 1 year old lambs and not from mature animals.
I have a sports bag made from Indian sheep leather it looks the same as some 'Capeskin' , full of grain and ribbing. To my eye those marks are quite ugly,but that is just my taste. Any thick hide will spoil the drape of the jacket,my BR was super tough HH is just looked wrong on that style though the leather itself was beautiful.

 

[andyfalzon]

Sorry but I disagree. Cape can be thin or thick. It is not necessarily thin. The tannery can make any thickness the customer wants. So it is simply not correct to say "Cape is thin". Also, it is not "very even". If you pay the shipping costs back and forth I can send you a whole cape skin to see for yourself.

 

[Edward]

I think there is general confusion between sheep leather and Capeskin. Cape is thin and very even not thick and very ribbed..yes there are old jackets with loads of grain but are these Capeskin or just sheep leather ? Mutton was a very popular meat because of the relative cheapness so skins would have been plentiful. Today the skins from sheep slaughtered for meat are classified as toxic waste. That is why it is very difficult to buy hides that match WW2 RAF jacket hides as the ones from the tanneries are from 1 year old lambs and not from mature animals.
I have a sports bag made from Indian sheep leather it looks the same as some 'Capeskin' , full of grain and ribbing. To my eye those marks are quite ugly,but that is just my taste. Any thick hide will spoil the drape of the jacket,my BR was super tough HH is just looked wrong on that style though the leather itself was beautiful.

How does sheep leather (generally, not specifically capeskin) compare against lamb, John? Is it closer to, say, goat?

 

[John Lever]

Traditionally it was thin that it why it was the premium choice for glove manufacture. I also read today that it is the method of tanning that denotes the specification for Cape,not the origin... I asked two tanneries a few years ago,neither had heard of Capeskin. One was Fenland. Today we expect Cape to come from the Haired sheep but it has also apparently come from South African goat skin.
I suspect that true Cape is very rare,possibly even unobtainable.
Edward, I think lamb refers to animals up to one year old. These can be very large though up to 200 kg in the case of tips.

 

[tonypaj]

Traditionally it was thin that it why it was the premium choice for glove manufacture. I also read today that it is the method of tanning that denotes the specification for Cape,not the origin... I asked two tanneries a few years ago,neither had heard of Capeskin. One was Fenland. Today we expect Cape to come from the Haired sheep but it has also apparently come from South African goat skin.
I suspect that true Cape is very rare,possibly even unobtainable.
Edward, I think lamb refers to animals up to one year old. These can be very large though up to 200 kg in the case of tips.

Then the simple question is, you go to the Goodwear website, choose A-1, they say it is capeskin, and to me that leather is very different from what you describe. And the Kelso dude kind of sides with Goodwear. Internet, who to trust... No sarcasm here, I just do not know. I'm OK with my A-1, that much I do know...

 

[Atticus Finch]

Then the simple question is, you go to the Goodwear website, choose A-1, they say it is capeskin, and to me that leather is very different from what you describe. And the Kelso dude kind of sides with Goodwear. Internet, who to trust... No sarcasm here, I just do not know. I'm OK with my A-1, that much I do know...

When I bought my A-1 from John, he was still making all of his jackets personally. I spoke to him on the phone several times during the process and he confirmed that he was making the jacket from capeskin...which is what I had requested. I even remember that he told me his leather source, but it escapes me now. I think he stopped making A-1s for a while somtime after he finished mine. I know the A-1 disappeared from his website. I think I recall that finding acceptable capeskin had become a problem for him...

AF

 

[Smithy]

How does sheep leather (generally, not specifically capeskin) compare against lamb, John? Is it closer to, say, goat?

I'm by no means a leather expert Edward but my family farm sheep and cattle back in NZ and I can say that the skin of a lamb is noticeably thinner than that of a full grown sheep, much in the same way that lambs wool is finer and softer than a mature animal. By the way the definition of a lamb back home was either an animal under 12 months or one that does not have permanent incisors in wear.

 

[Jeff M]

When I bought my A-1 from John, he was still making all of his jackets personally. ....

AF

He still is.

 

[Atticus Finch]

He still is.

That's good to hear. I recall that he hired some help a while back, but maybe that was for some task other than jacket making.

AF

 

[Atticus Finch]

BTW...I looked back through the other A-1 thread and found that my jacket was delivered in October of '08. That means I ordered it in late '07. Does anyone here recall where John was getting capeskin in those days?

AF

 

[Jeff M]

That's good to hear. I recall that he hired some help a while back, but maybe that was for some task other than jacket making.

AF

He has secretarial help...that's it.
A short time back. the BK rep over at the VLJ noted that BK is a smaller operation than GW.
That surprised me, as John is basically a one man shop.
I contacted John at that time...he told me he tried to bring on another jacket maker but had no luck in finding somebody with the skills he is looking for. Still a one man shop.

 

[John Lever]

Yes lambs are animals up to one year old,they can still big though.
My point is are tanneries selling sheep leather and simply calling it Capeskin hence the surface texture that traditionally it does not have ?
On the pockets issue, I understand that they were added as an afterthought to the original contract,hence the reason for the sewing through the lining.

 

[andyfalzon]

DR H, To bring this thread back on track a bit, are these jackets currently available? the BK website makes no mention of these new designs.

To answer a previous question (above) we have been busy making these jackets and yes all of them are currently available. Unfortunately, they do not appear on our website yet because the latter is still being updated and will be completed sometime in August. In the meantime, we will be glad to answer any and all your questions, or take orders by email.

Thanks.