Stetson Quality Experiment "Think Tank"

[tonyb]

Sorry Tony, you're right I wasn't very clear. You answered my question though. I didn't realize that all hats were delivered to the store with an open crown.

A follow up question then, Was or is a thin ribboned hat considered "Dressier"?

I'm with carter on this one, GWD. The narrower ribbons were generally marketed as more Western-flavored sorts of lids, appropriate for wear with jeans and pointy-toed boots and bolo ties. Witness the model names the manufacturers bestowed upon them -- Open Road, Dallas, San Antonio, Westward, Ranger, etc., etc.

It certainly isn't that they WEREN'T worn with more urbane attire, but the uptown crowd wasn't the marketing department's primary target. These days, almost any fedora (or homburg) may seem dressy, so a narrow-ribboned hat probably wouldn't seem any more out of its natural element in a Philadelphia lawyer's office than a wider-ribboned one would.

 

[feltfan]

I'm with carter on this one, GWD. The narrower ribbons were generally marketed as more Western-flavored sorts of lids, appropriate for wear with jeans and pointy-toed boots and bolo ties. Witness the model names the manufacturers bestowed upon them -- Open Road, Dallas, San Antonio, Westward, Ranger, etc., etc.

It certainly isn't that they WEREN'T worn with more urbane attire, but the uptown crowd wasn't the marketing department's primary target. These days, almost any fedora (or homburg) may seem dressy, so a narrow-ribboned hat probably wouldn't seem any more out of its natural element in a Philadelphia lawyer's office than a wider-ribboned one would.

Hm. So when Truman or LBJ wore them we could conclude that
they weren't the uptown crowd?

I think it was just Western vs. Eastern- indicating style not quality.

 

[PabloElFlamenco]

Hm. So when Truman or LBJ wore them we could conclude that
they weren't the uptown crowd?

I think it was just Western vs. Eastern- indicating style not quality.

Hmmm...(crackle on line)...Europe calling...(bad s/n)...this is my gut feeling. Not that I'm endowed with particular fingerspitzengefühl in matters American, but, yes, LBJ was a gentleman from Texas and his attire, whilst (in most cases) "presidential" enough, did HAVE to reflect that; hence the "open road". To me that hat is most definitely "western", and that means "cowboy" (even if worn by bankers). In the USA, that is perfectly legitimate and, I would say, tradition. Over here, hmmm..., well there is no such tradition: our bankers (assuming they would wear a hat) would wear a homburg or some other "classy" hat, never anything even close to resembling a cowboy hat, heavens forbid! FYG, my job's dress code is very lenient (great!), and -given I'm one of those excentrics who wear a hat- I have not gone to the length of wearing my true-grit western hats to work -I don't want to push the envelope out excessively far- but there is not the slightest doubt in that I very, very often wear one of my favorite hats to work: a "1950's" (?) Stetson 20 Sovereign cattleman bash OR clone (except for some details lol : no rim binding, no wind trolley, very very thin ribbon, no OR mention). As if, a western hat would imperatively be a hat with a very wide brim...

 

[Lefty]

*When all else fails, look to a primary source.*
Debbie Henderson isn't a primary source, but she's got a few included within Hat Talk. In the appendix, on page 139, she has reproduced a portion of a 1922 Stetson wholesale catalog, where retailers can order hats by the dozen. Of the twenty some hats that are listed, most are available in only 3 to 4 qualities. The "Hi-5", however, is available in all but 1 of the 10 qualities, with prices per dozen as follows:

Select Quality: $54
Excellent Quality(new to me): $63
No. 1 Quality: (unavailable for this hat)
Extra Quality: $72
Nutria Quality: $84
Real Nutria Quality: $96
3x Beaver Quality: $120
4x Beaver Quality: $144
5x Beaver Quality: $240
7x Beaver Quality: $288

Unfortunately, Henderson doesn't reproduce the entire catalog. However, from the hats shown, it is clear that it's not solely a western catalog. Derbies, soft homburgs, fedoras and westerns are included in the few pages of the catalog that are reproduced. The Hi-5 model is not shown on those pages.

 

[GWD]

Very Cool! Thanks Lefty!

 

[tonyb]

Hm. So when Truman or LBJ wore them we could conclude that
they weren't the uptown crowd?

I think it was just Western vs. Eastern- indicating style not quality.

Please, no need for sarcasm. Nothing in my post, to which you take exception, says anything about the "quality" of those narrow-ribboned hats versus other styles. There's not so much as a suggestion of that. Why you would suggest otherwise is beyond me.

 

[carter]

I suspect that neither Harry Truman nor Lyndon Baines Johnson would have considered themselves "Uptowners". They may have been a lot of things but they seem to me to have alwys been true to their roots.

On the other hand, for the purposes of this discussion, a man's choice of headgear is as much a matter of personal preference as anything else. I imagine both those gentlemen wore the hat that most appealed to them while being mindful of the image they presented to the public. LBJ certainly didn't hurt the popularity of the Open Road or its imitators.

 

[suitedcboy]

More examples to ponder....

I received this new to me hat from Ebay seller.

Looks to be in terrific shape with little wear time but issues from being stored stacked inside another hat. Nothing a little SLC (steamy loving care) won't fix.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3270/2887177963_1cb13b887b.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3084/2887176583_5f10fc662a.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3248/2887176869_0faa0ab0f4.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3203/2888012170_08085b68f8.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3075/2887177447_362f084ceb.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3086/2887177771_32e3dfb67b.jpg?v=0

 

[jimmy the lid]

Nice lid, cboy. Since your lid came from the 1224 Chestnut Street Stetson store, you may also find a date of sale stamped on the back of the sweat. Let us know what you find.

Cheers,
JtL

 

[suitedcboy]

I tried to catch it in one of those pics. "-1954" is clear but the rest of the date is very faint but looks like "FEB 8".

This is one of those no name hats. The name "Devon" is on the tag but it is not described as anything else but a 3x quality. No Sovereign, 1st Quality, etc.

The oilskin is a cloth type and is pliable and in great condition. The sweatband also is very soft and supple and shows no ill effects of age.

I found something on this hat that I have seen on others though. The reed joint that is at rear has secreted a waxy/greasy green goo that stained the felt very slightly. gently scraped it off felt and then scraped the residue from the reeding. It must be a glue, or maybe they in fact used paraffin, to hold the reed ends together for stitching.

 

[suitedcboy]

If the records were ever discovered the order numbers found on many of these gems might be of use. For this hat, the trail starts at the factory store but for others without seller's stamp or a date, this could tell us things.

 

[feltfan]

That's great! I'm glad to hear it's in good hands, where it's safe and appreciated. Is the sweatband as wide as it looks?

That is a 2 inch sweatband.

 

[GWD]

Liners of the decades

After some studying I've come up with the following,

1930's Liners / Logo

Note the "London, Paris, Philadelphia"

1940's Liners / Logos

1950's Liners / Logos

Note the lack of "London, Paris, Philadelphia"

Of course there are variations and exceptions

 

[Dinerman]

yet another variation on the round crest

 

[GWD]

What type of hat is that Dinerman? I wonder if it's a 1920's "Select"

 

[Dinerman]

It's a derby from ebay. Hadn't seen that exact logo before.

 

[Dinerman]

Some more logos- stolen from another thread. There are so many different logos Stetson used, and so many subtle variations within the same logo over the years, it's amazing. I'll try to put different logos and quality designations up as I find them.

Look at the different stitching used on the sweatbands here. I don't know which is older, I just think it's interesting.

One's IIIIIIIIIII
One's VVVVVV

 

[Dinerman]

 

[Dinerman]

 

[GWD]

Dinerman, stay away from my ebay watch list!!! :eusa_doh: