Stetson Open Road/Quality Designation Project

[Chinaski]

)The Royal Stetson, while being at the bottom of the marketing/quality designation heap, is actually a very nice piece of felt. The next step up is the Royal DeLuxe -- and, honestly, I cannot discern any meaningful difference in terms of felt quality. It has always been a bit of a mystery as to what actually justified the additional $2.50 in terms of pricing over the Royal Stetson. Perhaps there was a slight change to the fur blend, or perhaps the finishing was just a tad smoother -- but who knows? From my perspective, as a practical matter, I can't really discern a particularly meaningful difference.
Cheers,
JtL

The answer to the question posed is that for the extra $2.50 you get the word "Deluxe."

Tongue in cheek, but we all know there's a marketing component involved so I think JtL's treatise is meaningful in that we have the perceptions of a guy who's handled a few lids in his day! Thanks for posting Jimmy.

Also, gtdean, thanks for your comments in this thread as well - good stuff!

 

[rlk]

You know, hatophile -- I find that Silverbelly is a color that is almost impossible to describe, but I know it when I see it. I think that gtdean has done an excellent job of providing an overview on the subject. And, the photo that he has referenced captures the color that I think of as Silverbelly.

Cheers,
JtL

Not all Stetsons, nominally all Silverbelly color, lower center is an actual Silverbelly Beaver Hat flanked by Stetsons. Lower right is a Stetson 25 of the OR style persuasion.

 

[alanfgag]

Thanks RLK...another survery confirming that the color of the universe is beige.

 

[danofarlington]

Thanks RLK...another survery confirming that the color of the universe is beige.

Wrong! The color of the universe is silverbelly. RBH will back me up on that. I don't care what the scientists said.

 

[feltfan]

Enjoying this thread as time permits. I have a OR 25, probably from the 50s,
that is quite stiff. Nevertheless, extremely fine felt. So fine that when I had
Optimo replace the sweatband, Graham had to comment on that felt.
Pictures... er, ASAP.

But really, JtL, I can't take your conclusions about the felt quality seriously
until I see cross sections of each hat...

 

[jimmy the lid]

Enjoying this thread as time permits. I have a OR 25, probably from the 50s,
that is quite stiff. Nevertheless, extremely fine felt. So fine that when I had
Optimo replace the sweatband, Graham had to comment on that felt.
Pictures... er, ASAP.

But really, JtL, I can't take your conclusions about the felt quality seriously
until I see cross sections of each hat...

Understood.

Your comment about Graham's reaction to the felt on the 25 doesn't surprise me, feltfan. The 25 that I used for this project was NOS, true to what the Seller had to say about the hat. So, it was a bit stiff. I spent an evening massaging the brim to break it in a bit, and the results are fairly remarkable. The brim is now beautifully soft and smooth -- and someone would have to work mighty hard to make me believe that this hat is not pure beaver.

I feel very much the same about the Sovereign. That, too, is gorgeous felt, and gives one the sense of handling a beaver lid.

For a long time, I was stuck on thinking that vintage lids didn't consist of pure beaver until you got somewhere near the $50 range. This was largely based on the existence of the Stetson 7X Clear Beaver, and the fact that discussions back in the early days of the Lounge tended to slant towards this lid being the first example of a pure beaver hat in Stetson's line. What has always nagged at me about such a conclusion is that, purely from a pricing standpoint, this doesn't necessarily add up.

Here's what I mean... In the last few years, an entry level lid from "Stetson" or Biltmore has been priced in the $120 to $140 range, and, today, that price is even higher. During this time, one could buy a pure beaver lid from a custom hatter starting at around $250 (and going up over time). Even today, a pure beaver "Stetson" from Hatco is priced at roughly twice the price of an entry-level lid.

What I've wondered about is why the same wouldn't have been true back in the day. A Stetson 20 was twice the price of Stetson's entry-level Royal Stetson -- and the Stetson 25 was two and a half times the price. So -- to my mind, it makes sense that, at least in theory, a pure beaver lid would have been available at roughly those price points. The 7X Clear Beaver on the other hand, was five times the price of an entry-level lid -- quite a hefty jump.

I am now starting to think that lids in the $40/$50 range and beyond were priced to reflect higher grades of beaver fur, and a more elaborate finishing process. These really were superlative lids, and the price reflects this. But, that's not to say that a pure beaver lid wasn't available at a lower price point, for the reasons I've just stated.

Enlarging the scope of this discussion a bit -- I have come to believe, over time, that a hat at the "20" level (be it a Stetson, a Dobbs, a Knox, etc.) was really a top-level quality vintage lid. In relative terms, it is fairly rare that one sees vintage hats in the 40/50/100 range. So rare, in fact, that it's hard to believe that, back in the day, pure beaver lids were limited to those rather extravagant price points.

So, as usual, this is offered up as some general musing, and not anything definitive. Is it time for a Tonga Punch yet, feltfan?

Cheers,
JtL

 

[rlk]

We really need to get someone from the fur blending Dept. at Hatco to speak. I lack any hands on felting expertise but I'd like to make a few comments. Firstly everyone needs to be cured of the Black and White Rabbit vs. Beaver good/bad simplification. I'll dig up some lists of the varieties of fur available and the price variables. Beavers were nearly extinct when hat sales hit their peak and became a fairly rare and ultra-expensive commodity. Now a days there are exponentially fewer hats and probably more Beavers. There were probably a dozen species of fur and various body parts and geographical origins at play. Beaver was 20X more expensive than the basic bulk rabbit(about 50 choices broadly in this category). Best Belgian Hare a little over 1/2 its price and Nutria a little over 1/3. This is pre WW2. Hare can be more refined and Nutria can be more durable and even better at binding the felt and maintaining form(hence Military spec). What % of the ultimate price of the hat is actually the felt blend?
I had a similar Optimo experience with a 25. Graham expressed that he generally preferred it to some of the other high level Stetson Felts. Its really not soft enough to be Belly and seems to have a touch of the toughness and holding power that, pulling it from my posterior...might be Nutria in the blend. Like most Cognac and Whisky a fine consistent product can be made with blends and may achieve an outcome with a combination of qualities which may exceed the more expensive brands in some cases. My all-silver belly Optimo is fantastic to touch and look at, but under low humidity it is so resilient that any creases bounce off. Yes you could steam it smoothly into any sculpture--but forget about spontaneous dry-creasing.

I just had this image handy--from 1911--sorry no Beaver available at this supplier

General note: Belly is best for Beaver and Nutria, Backs are best for Bunnies and Hares.

found another 2 lists:

PS: Dairy products also available by the start of WW2 for blending.

 

[suitedcboy]

I agree! I wish we had the counsel of someone who was involved in the felting business.
My experience is with westerns much more than dress but the 100% beaver felt grade does not assure the best hand or durability in every case.
Shellac is another thing that can vary the tactile quality of the felt.
Roadkill beaver with lesser quantities of shellac and an additional pouncing step can make for one luxurious feeling hat.
I had a silver belly beaver/rabbit blend 20 X Resistol that got nasty and I decided to Woolite wash it and make an attempt to restore it. After washing and drying the felt looked "whooped". I had the patience and time to sand it through a few grits ending up with a 1000 grit last step and the hat was wonderful! The feel was velvetty and the stiffness was reduced from all the handling but it still would hold its shape so well. I was my favorite daily hat until it got pulled off my head by a branch and went through the Bush-Hog behind the tractor.......................

 

[jimmy the lid]

rlk -- it's not exactly clear to me what you are responding to. This thread is not based upon the simplistic assertion that price differences between different marketing/quality designations of contemporaneous Stetson lids can only be explained by increased beaver content. Nor is anyone going down the "beaver is better" trail. It goes without saying that one of the joys of vintage lids is the wide variety of felts that are out there. I couldn't agree more that the qualitative differences in various blends -- and the way that they look, handle, and shape -- are to be celebrated.

My discussion really only focuses on beaver content in relation to the Stetson 20 and 25 lids that were part of this project. I am not concluding that these hats must contain beaver because of the price. In fact, what's going on here is exactly the opposite. I have offered some subjective observations (seasoned with a copious dose of disclaimers) about my perception of the felt in comparison to a number of other related lids (including a variety of hats I know to be pure beaver). My perception that the Stetson 25 contains a very high percentage of beaver is based upon this hat-to-hat comparison. The question on the table is this -- is it possible that, in the early 50's, Stetson could have produced something close to a pure beaver lid at that particular price point? That's it, pure and simple.

Cheers,
JtL

 

[rlk]

I am trying to be a bit more general, but part of my point is that Beaver was indeed a lot more expensive than other raw fur and that many of the desirable qualities might be achieved without necessarily a high Beaver content. I'm actually dubious of the high Beaver in the 20/25 because of both price and feel but don't have much ability to do more than speculate. I'm saying those felts can achieve a very high quality and performance capability to the point that some may prefer them to the far more expensive models we know to be all Beaver. The basic question of what percentage of a hat's total production cost and ultimate quality is the fur is rather central to the issue and very much opaque at this point. Even the totality of "hand" is rather challenging to compare. I too have pure beaver, pure belly beaver, pure nutria, and pure hare felts that are clearly different. Once we start to mix which are we feeling? Even more difficulty on a very smoothly pounced hat. Aside from the raw fur there are the shellacs and how much, the length of the fibers and the felting and finishing processes as variables beyond the fur content. I haven't been able to get a fix on modern fur prices, although I suspect that Beaver may not be as many times more expensive now as fewer hats and fur garments are made and Beaver populations have somewhat recovered. Unfortunately just speculation.

This is in no way an attack on any one as the relative qualities and performance impressions are perfectly valid and valuable, but there's a big data gap as regards the fur and production itself. I'm expressing an interest in filling this gap with some objective information as well. Ultimately, of course the hat in hand itself trumps its specifications.

PS: I have a 4X and 5X from the 50's....

 

[jimmy the lid]

Well, I sure wish we were having this conversation over a cold Sammy....Oh, wait a second -- in one month we will be!

I agree with the points you are making. It would be great to get some more concrete info that would allow us to make some objective headway. I wonder if our excursion to Hatco will help to illuminate anything?

In the meantime, however -- in terms of "Blown Furs", the 1938 chart shows that the lowest grade beaver available is not much more expensive than other furs, although the price goes up considerably in terms of the higher grades. Just to be clear -- I'm not trying to prove that a Stetson 25 is a pure beaver lid. In any event, there's little likelihood of that even being possible. But, as stated in my first post -- I'm not so sure that the 25 having a relatively high beaver content is out of the question. I started this thread to engender exactly this type of discussion, so it will be interesting to see if we can make any headway.

Oh, and Robert -- as far as your 50's 4X and 5X, the differences in price were simply based on nicer sweats...:whistling

Cheers,
JtL

 

[Chinaski]

Reading the last few posts made me think of Robert Pirsig of "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" having a mental break with reality after deeply pondering the meaning of quality. We all know quality, but when you attempt to define it...

Enjoying the discussion. I see they used to use seal as well. I didn't know that.

 

[jimmy the lid]

Good to see you here, Phaedrus...

 

[Chinaski]

Good to see you here, Phaedrus...

I'm not Phaedrus - I'm the guy who rides the BMW but doesn't wrench very well However, I CAN adjust the valves by the side of the road if needed! Oh, and I can change the fluids...

 

[feltfan]

I am now starting to think that lids in the $40/$50 range and beyond were priced to reflect higher grades of beaver fur, and a more elaborate finishing process. These really were superlative lids, and the price reflects this. But, that's not to say that a pure beaver lid wasn't available at a lower price point, for the reasons I've just stated.

Enlarging the scope of this discussion a bit -- I have come to believe, over time, that a hat at the "20" level (be it a Stetson, a Dobbs, a Knox, etc.) was really a top-level quality vintage lid. In relative terms, it is fairly rare that one sees vintage hats in the 40/50/100 range. So rare, in fact, that it's hard to believe that, back in the day, pure beaver lids were limited to those rather extravagant price points.

So, as usual, this is offered up as some general musing, and not anything definitive. Is it time for a Tonga Punch yet, feltfan?

Oh man... I was drinking out of the Smuggler's Cove mug tonight. Unfortunately loaded only with water.
I have to agree with that assessement. Over $20 was a flavor of trophy hat; a luxury. My various 20s, be
they from Knox, Stetson, or whoever, are superb hats, all with Cavanagh-style edges and felt that threatens
to live forever and is impervious to weather. And so soft.

I suspect the proportion of vintage hats in the above $20 range is not the proportion one would have seen
back in the day. They were expensive treasures, rarely worn and much babied. In any event, they are easier
for us to afford in many cases than they would have been in the day because so many people don't know what
they are...

Heading off of the laptop to mix a drink.

 

[tridentine]

Are all Stetson 20's from the late 50's, Sovereign fur grade?
Thank you.

 

[danofarlington]

Well, I own a 25 and like it, and am listening about any speculation that there might be beaver content in it. I also like to hear that Optimo thinks 25s are quality hats. Keep it coming. It's like what I heard in my intro psychology class long ago--advertising appeals less to buyers deciding what to get, than to someone who's already bought the product, and is looking for reinforcement about the correctness of his decision. That's where I'm at. So let's have some more opinions about how great 25s are.

 

[tridentine]

Great point, Dan.

I have an Stetson 20 from a good Lounger who says it is from the late 50s early 60's and the felt is thicker and softer than my early 50's Stratoliner, and actually nicer to the feel than my 1939 Borsalino Alessandria.

 

[rlk]

20($) is only a price point not a specific fur blend/hat body. Stratoliner/"Alessandria" are lightweight basic(likely mostly Rabbit) felts that vary to some extent over their eras of production. Open Roads are medium or Western(heavier) weight bodies. This thread demonstrates the difficulty of generalizations.

 

[gtdean48]

Well, I own a 25 and like it, and am listening about any speculation that there might be beaver content in it. I also like to hear that Optimo thinks 25s are quality hats. Keep it coming. It's like what I heard in my intro psychology class long ago--advertising appeals less to buyers deciding what to get, than to someone who's already bought the product, and is looking for reinforcement about the correctness of his decision. That's where I'm at. So let's have some more opinions about how great 25s are.

When it was introduced, it was the top of the line by Stetson or at least can derive that from Victor's 1943 Miller Catalog postings....
BTW, this is before the Open Road was launched as a model name for the thin ribbon version...
*note the NEW Stetson 25 Quality*