Stetson Open Road/Quality Designation Project

[hatophile]

Thanks for the enlightenment on this color subject, gtdean.

 

[jimmy the lid]

Good stuff Jimmy! Now for your next investigation Chief, how about comparing some other models of similar designation you may be able to do, like a Knox 20 to a Stetson 20?

That kind of cross-comparison has to be accomplished in the strictest of lab settings. I understand that Love-and-War-In-Texas has such a lab and will make it available for rigorous testing and analysis. Know anyone with a Knox 20 Thin-Ribbon?

 

[jimmy the lid]

Do you have a sense for what color silverbelly really is? I have several that I assume are silverbelly, but not marked as such, but the lighter colors of the Stetson Westerns and ORs seem to be all over the place, as Michael Shane pointed out.

You know, hatophile -- I find that Silverbelly is a color that is almost impossible to describe, but I know it when I see it. I think that gtdean has done an excellent job of providing an overview on the subject. And, the photo that he has referenced captures the color that I think of as Silverbelly.

Cheers,
JtL

 

[jimmy the lid]

I want to add one note to my "findings." As advertised, I attempted to give a straightforward subjective analysis of a particular group of Open Roads that date to the same general timeframe. That being said, I believe that my finding that there was no real discernible difference between the Royal Stetson and the Royal Stetson DeLuxe may be atypical, and may well have to do with the fact that the particular Royal Stetson in question is actually a pretty nice piece of felt, relatively speaking. (Interestingly, I have another Royal Stetson from the same period -- a Stratoliner -- that is equally nice). But, these examples may be more the exception than the rule.

So, to offer another view of things, today I "tested" two other OR's that both date to circa mid-50's. For starters, the mid-50's Royal Stetson OR is not near as nice as the circa-1950 Royal Stetson I used for this project yesterday. In this new test, the mid-50's Royal Stetson DeLuxe is definitely nicer than the mid-50's Royal Stetson in terms of the finish, and the felt is certainly softer and smoother. This particular comparison may provide a more accurate picture generally -- suggesting that there really was a "step-up" from the Royal Stetson to the Royal DeLuxe quality designation.

Once again, I want to emphasize that this project is focused on Open Roads in particular, and attempts (albeit in a way that, by definition, is imperfect) to try to compare hats that date to the same general timeframe. It's a subject that has come up often on this Forum, and I thought it would be worth trying to catalogue a few observations in this regard.

Cheers,
JtL

 

[Lefty]

Once again, I want to emphasize that this project is focused on Open Roads in particular,

Well now, wait a second. I could have sworn that a hefty ol' western made it's way into the bunch.

Sometimes, they're hard to spot, but you've got to look out for those Pretenders to the Road.

 

[fedoralover]

Well, since it's Super Sunday, I decided to engage in a little project this morning. Over coffee, I have assembled Stetson Open Roads (and one western) in every quality designation for a head-to-head comparison.

Let me start by saying that comparing felt qualities is not necessarily an easy thing to do. I think that our perception of the felt is colored by a number of factors, such as the quality of the finish, the weight of the felt, the stiffness of the felt, etc. Some of these factors may, in fact, be related to the actual composition of the felt itself (rabbit, hare, beaver) -- but that's not always true. So, it's a difficult exercise -- and, obviously, a highly subjective one.

In order for any kind of felt comparison to be meaningful, it seems to me that it's critical to be comparing lids that are very close together in time. It goes without saying that, over time, the "quality" of lids sharing the exact same marketing/quality designation will differ -- for example, one would expect that a mid-60's 3X OR selling for $15 would be of a lesser quality than a similar lid from the early 50's selling for the same price.

So, my control group this morning consists of a Royal Stetson, a Royal Deluxe Stetson, a 3X Beaver Quality, a Sovereign/Stetson 20, a Stetson 25, a 7X Clear Beaver and a Stetson 100. With the exception of the Stetson 25, which is a western, all of the lids are Open Roads. I am reasonably confident that all of these lids date to circa 1950.

So, here's how it stacks up...

The Royal Stetson, while being at the bottom of the marketing/quality designation heap, is actually a very nice piece of felt. The next step up is the Royal DeLuxe -- and, honestly, I cannot discern any meaningful difference in terms of felt quality. It has always been a bit of a mystery as to what actually justified the additional $2.50 in terms of pricing over the Royal Stetson. Perhaps there was a slight change to the fur blend, or perhaps the finishing was just a tad smoother -- but who knows? From my perspective, as a practical matter, I can't really discern a particularly meaningful difference.

Moving on to the 3X -- the felt feels discernibly more dense and a bit smoother in terms of finish. Was there beaver fur in a 3X Beaver Quality? The answer is that none of us really know. Given the increased density and smoothness, however, I would have no trouble believing that beaver had been introduced into the mix, if even in just a small percentage. Another possibility is that the fur blend changed in other ways -- in terms of different grades of rabbit or hare. Once again, I have absolutely no way of knowing. But, in terms of this project, I would say that the 3X represents a discernible, but still subtle, increase in felt quality.

Now, on to the Sovereign/Stetson 20. Here is where, IMHO, there really is a quantum leap in terms of felt quality. The felt takes on much more of the feel of a beaver lid -- it is dense and smooth. Really, a fantastic quality level. My own sense is that, back in the day, this quality designation was pretty much the top of the heap in terms of everyday retail sales of Stetsons. Of course, there were higher designations available, but the Sovereign was no slouch. A very nice quality of felt. I wouldn't even begin to suggest that I am knowledgeable in terms of accurately assessing fur content and blends -- I'll leave that to our pros. But, I would completely buy the proposition that the Sovereign is at least 50% beaver. Whether it is or not, who knows? But in terms of perception of the felt, it certainly has this feel for me.

The Stetson "25" represents a discernible step up in felt quality from the Sovereign. Like the Sovereign, the felt is dense, but it is smoother and more substantial. Is the "25" a 100% beaver lid? After this morning's experiment, I'm not willing to rule that out. In order to assist me, I compared it to a couple of custom lids I have that are made of Winchester 100% beaver felt. The "25" compares very favorably to the Winchester beaver felt. Does the "25" fall a hare short (pun intended ) of pure beaver? Maybe. But, once again, in terms of perception -- I find the "25" to be in that general ballpark.

The 7X Clear Beaver introduces the "ahhhh" factor. You can't help yourself -- the felt feels that good. Compared to the "25", the felt is more dense. But, the incredibly striking feature is the nature of the finish -- it is smooth as a baby's bottom. Just amazing. What accounts for this? Finishing techniques, certainly. But, I would imagine that part of this feel may also have to do with a higher grade of beaver fur being used. The quality of felt and finish is, in a word, superlative.

Last, but certainly not least -- the Stetson "100". Well, what can I say? Just an amazing experience. In terms of comparing it to the 7X, I perceive two palpable differences. First, my sense is that the felt is "super" dense -- compared to the 7X, the difference is subtle, but it's there. The second difference has to do with the finish -- so smooth that it's like a skating rink. Is the beaver fur of a higher grade than that used on the 7X? It would be interesting to find out. One way or the other, it really is an extraordinary felt.

Looking back over this project, I tend to put all of these lids into two groupings. The first group consists of the Royal, Royal DeLuxe, 3X Beaver Quality and the Sovereign/Stetson 20 -- with the Sovereign being the King of the bunch (no coincidence that Stetson chose the "Sovereign" moniker, methinks). The second group is comprised of the "25", the 7X Clear Beaver and the "100."

So, there you have it. I don't pretend to have the knowledge or expertise to offer meaningful conclusions regarding the precise composition of any given felt. My purpose in making this post is a practical one: namely, to catalogue my perception of how these different quality designations compare -- as if I had walked into a hat store in 1950 and was trying to distinguish between these designations for purposes of buying a new Stetson.

Hope this serves a useful purpose.

Cheers,
JtL

Great comparison JTL, I've done the same thing with mine, also trying to figure out the grade level. One that you didn't include is the Stetson Imperial Open Road. These are super rare and I was lucky to snag one years ago before the Open Roads got popular. To me it is similar to my 25, but the amount of stiffener in the various hats always makes it hard for me to be subjective. I have the Stetson Sovereign 20 Ambassador from 1950 and it is definitely the smoothest of the bunch. I'm not sure how much beaver it has in it but it has to be a lot. I'm glad someone else did this comparison, as it confirms most of my findings as well.

regards fedoralover

 

[jimmy the lid]

Always good to see you here, Rich.

Thanks for reminding me about the Imperial designation. To tell you the truth, you do seem to have a relatively rare OR! I just don't remember seeing an OR with the Imperial designation. If you're ever inclined to share some photos (including the liner and sweat), that would be appreciated.

That being said, the "Imperial" and the "3X Beaver Quality" marketing/quality designations both shared the same price point in the early 50's -- namely, $15. Since pricing information tends to get scattered amongst threads that come and go, here is a recap of pricing during that time period:

Royal Stetson: $10
Royal Deluxe: $12.50
3X Beaver Quality/Imperial: $15
Sovereign/Stetson 20: $20
Stetson 25: $25
7X Clear Beaver: $50
Stetson 100: $100


Cheers,
JtL

 

[jimmy the lid]

Great info Jim, what about a photo of the hats so we can 'see' what you are talking about.
Maybe one or two of the hats together.

I'll see about getting some mini-group portraits... Gotta crease my Sovereign/Twenty first!

Cheers,
JtL

 

[gtdean48]

That kind of cross-comparison has to be accomplished in the strictest of lab settings. I understand that Love-and-War-In-Texas has such a lab and will make it available for rigorous testing and analysis. Know anyone with a Knox 20 Thin-Ribbon?

You know I am all about that intense lab research. I think I can locate one to bring to Texas.

 

[jimmy the lid]

You know I am all about that intense lab research. I think I can locate one to bring to Texas.

You are a gentleman and a scholar.

 

[gtdean48]

You are a gentleman and a scholar.

Takes one to know one!!!!

 

[Rodkins]

You guys have really put some nice work together here. I appreciate your efforts.

 

[hatophile]

Good work, gentlemen. While it's fun to wear the hats, it's also fun and interesting to explore
how they were made, and all of the differences in quality which were available. You folks with
longstanding experience and access to some of the various makes and styles are nice to share your findings.

 

[jimmy the lid]

You guys have really put some nice work together here. I appreciate your efforts.

The Bureau is always honored to serve.

 

[azhiker]

OH, YOU are soo bad!

 

[hatophile]

The Bureau is always honored to serve.

That's killer! You do look like a G-man, JtL.

 

[jimmy the lid]

That is a testament to the mad Photoshop skills of RBH -- head of the Bureau's FCIS Unit.

 

[alanfgag]

That is a testament to the mad Photoshop skills of RBH -- head of the Bureau's FCIS Unit.

masterfully done.

 

[hatophile]

To quote Machine Gun Kelly (if he ever said it)

"Don't shoot, G-men, don't shoot!"

 

[fmw]

The Bureau is always honored to serve.

Outstanding. Thanks for the chuckle. What we need now to help finance a hat habit is a Fedora Reserve Bank!