So trivial, yet it really ticks you off.

[LizzieMaine]

The wording of the ADA stipulates only that changes to facilities must be made when they are "readily achieveable and able to be carried out without much difficulty or expense." That's a phrase that was left wide open to interpretation, and usually seems to be interpreted on the side of the business or facility.

"New" faciltiies, which must be built as accessible under the law are defined as those built after 1995, when the law took effect. Even here there are exemptions based on the size of the building -- for example, with certain exceptions, a new building under three stories high, or with less than 3000 square feet of floor space, isn't required to have an elevator. And it's not required to add an elevator or certain other expensive updates to an old building during a renovation unless it can be done "without much difficulty or expense." And other alterations in a building under renovation, such as ramps, are only required if the combined cost of such updates come to 20 percent or less of the total cost of the overall renovation project.

Other answers to ADA questions here.

When the theatre was renovated in 2005, we weren't required to add an elevator to the balcony, which annoys many people, but the footprint of the building is such that there was no way to put one in "without much difficulty or expense," and also because there was no way to make the balcony itself accessible -- the construction is such that there's no safe way to install ramps there. But ramps were installed in the lobby, an accessible bathroom was added to the lobby, and wheelchair accessible areas were added to the seating plan on the main floor.

My main problem in enforcing the ADA is with able-bodied people who insist on using the wheelchair seating areas because they "get leg cramps," and I end up having to ask them to move when a person in an actual wheelchair needs the space. Or able-bodied people who insist on using the accessible one-seater bathroom because they're just too lazy to use the main facilities downstairs.

 

[Fading Fast]

The wording of the ADA stipulates only that changes to facilities must be made when they are "readily achieveable and able to be carried out without much difficulty or expense." That's a phrase that was left wide open to interpretation, and usually seems to be interpreted on the side of the business or facility.

"New" faciltiies, which must be built as accessible under the law are defined as those built after 1995, when the law took effect. Even here there are exemptions based on the size of the building -- for example, with certain exceptions, a new building under three stories high, or with less than 3000 square feet of floor space, isn't required to have an elevator. And it's not required to add an elevator or certain other expensive updates to an old building during a renovation unless it can be done "without much difficulty or expense." And other alterations in a building under renovation, such as ramps, are only required if the combined cost of such updates come to 20 percent or less of the total cost of the overall renovation project.

Other answers to ADA questions here.

On paper, so many things sound reasonable and, then, in the real world the craziness starts. I was avoiding going here, but what the heck. The building I live in was built in 1928 and from the multiple stairs here (there and everywhere) in the just the lobby, to say nothing of the narrow entrance ways, no turn radius areas, etc., it is not accessible to a wheel chair in any reasonable way. And to make it so would effectively require the building be all but torn down or, maybe, really torn down.

Our apartment is also not in anyway wheel chair accessible. The two bedrooms can only be reached by a narrow hallway that would require other apartments be reshaped if we tried to widen it. Also, two of the three fire exits are very narrow with no real turn radius and, again, without effectively rebuilding the building there is no, even complicated and expensive way, to change it.

Pragmatically and sadly, no one in a wheelchair should consider buying in this building. Yet, when we went for approval to renovate our bathroom - which can only be reached threw the aforementioned narrow hallway (and the multi-level lobby and no-turn radius halls, etc. of the building) - the initial response was we needed to make the bathroom ADA compliant with a full turn radius. The bathroom is, for most of it, 2.5 feet wide (this is a old NYC apartment, the bathroom is silly small and tight).

We had to go back (and I had to pay an architect to represent us and lawyer to review) to the building's department and plead our case. While they grudgingly agreed, they could have stood their ground which would have, effectively, told us you can't renovate your bathroom. Mind you, we did what we could - at our expense - to put in ADA lighting and widen a doorway - which I'm glad to do, but in truth, was silly as, as noted, this is simply not an apartment for someone in a wheel chair.

That us why when I read / here about reasonable accommodation that could be made but aren't, my mind wrinkles. What is it that prevents reasonableness, thoughtfulness, pragmatism and rational application from winning out? Why are we incapable of enforcing this law (many laws) without intelligent discretion?

 

[LizzieMaine]

As I understand it, apartment buildings are covered under the Fair Housing Act, rather than the ADA. That Act requires that buildings not be constructed or renovated in such a way as to discriminate against any present or future occupant on the grounds of disability. That act seems pretty specific in stating that buildings built before 1991 and subsequently renovated don't have to be brought into full compliance with that Act unless the entire interior of the building is gutted out and completely reconstructed. So likely the management of the building either didn't know the law or wanted to err on the side of over-stringent interpretation of the law. But you were clearly in the right in the case.

These laws *are* complex, because there's no way any law can cover every possible situation unless it is. That's why it pays to get to know the laws, and never "assume" anything -- as part of my job I have to know about the ADA and what applies to us and what doesn't, and it does save a lot of trouble when work has to be done on the building, or when other questions arise.

 

[Fading Fast]

As I understand it, apartment buildings are covered under the Fair Housing Act, rather than the ADA. That Act requires that buildings not be constructed or renovated in such a way as to discriminate against any present or future occupant on the grounds of disability. That act seems pretty specific in stating that buildings built before 1991 and subsequently renovated don't have to be brought into full compliance with that Act unless the entire interior of the building is gutted out and completely reconstructed. So likely the management of the building either didn't know the law or wanted to err on the side of over-stringent interpretation of the law. But you were clearly in the right in the case.

These laws *are* complex, because there's no way any law can cover every possible situation unless it is. That's why it pays to get to know the laws, and never "assume" anything -- as part of my job I have to know about the ADA and what applies to us and what doesn't, and it does save a lot of trouble when work has to be done on the building, or when other questions arise.

Everything you said makes sense, but it was the Department of Buildings and not my building's management that initially said we had to make the bathroom compliant. The lawyer and architect I hired (I have a full-time job and have to hire professionals or I'll lose days of work trying to get up to speed on this), basically said what you said, with the caveat that they Department of Buildings could force me to continue to challenge their ruling which, even though I'm right, would cost me a lot of time and money. That's one of the not often talked about powers of a gov't bureaucracy - to force you to fight at your expense even when you are right.

I had a mini-version of this with the electrical inspection where the first inspector, scripted out of central casting for being an angry "I'm going to find something" inspector, failed us on two technicalities - that, the next inspector said, "was ridiculous and not a problem or violation at all," of course, after spending time and money.

 

[tonyb]

As our Ms. Maine has noted, the ADA has holes big enough to get an aircraft carrier through, but not a wheelchair.

Anecdotes? Here's one ...

A light rail station is opening later this year about a quarter mile from our new digs. There is no route covering less than three times that distance that doesn't involve the wheelchair using member of this household traveling on the roads, with the cars and trucks and buses.

There are sidewalks the entire distance between here and the rail station, but those walks are narrow and blocked and overgrown in places, and few corners are ramped, hence the considerably less than direct route it requires without going into the street.

Further complicating matters is that the concrete sidewalks and curbs here were made with a single pour. The "curbs" are beveled and fairly high, so there are no driveway cuts (ramps) at all, hence the bevel, which make them passable by motor vehicles (although a driver soon learns to take them slow), but impassable to wheelchair users. The bevels are too steep and too high; going over them would surely pitch the wheelchair user out of the chair and onto the pavement. But hey! That single pour is less costly than proper curbs and driveway cuts. And if it creates a real hazard for wheelchair users? Well, that's life, by the looks of it. Or death.

 

[sheeplady]

In remodeling our new home, we planned for reasonable aging in place. For instance, any "new" doorways are 36 inches wide, which will accommodate a standard wheelchair. We added a downstairs bedroom, and the downstairs bathroom will have a "low entry" shower, a wall-mounted sink, and grab bars. We'll have grab bars in every bathroom on the toilet and showers. Everyone argued with me (the architect, extended family members, etc.) to "just add the blocking" in the walls for the grab bars rather than installing them.

The number one thing that leads to someone being forced to leave their home is a fall. For older adults, the fall of a healthy individual is a predictor of a decline that is correlated with death in 6 to 18 months. Most people realize they need the grab bars *after* they have a significant fall. Some people (for various reasons) can't or won't add grab bars after the first fall, which leads to a second or third or fourth fall- which can set into motion a series of events leading to eventual death.

I went over all of this with those that were arguing against, and their argument was, "they're ugly."

No. Just no.

 

[Fading Fast]

In remodeling our new home, we planned for reasonable aging in place. For instance, any "new" doorways are 36 inches wide, which will accommodate a standard wheelchair. We added a downstairs bedroom, and the downstairs bathroom will have a "low entry" shower, a wall-mounted sink, and grab bars. We'll have grab bars in every bathroom on the toilet and showers. Everyone argued with me (the architect, extended family members, etc.) to "just add the blocking" in the walls for the grab bars rather than installing them.

The number one thing that leads to someone being forced to leave their home is a fall. For older adults, the fall of a healthy individual is a predictor of a decline that is correlated with death in 6 to 18 months. Most people realize they need the grab bars *after* they have a significant fall. Some people (for various reasons) can't or won't add grab bars after the first fall, which leads to a second or third or fourth fall- which can set into motion a series of events leading to eventual death.

I went over all of this with those that were arguing against, and their argument was, "they're ugly."

No. Just no.

Two years ago, my mom fell walking on the street - she was 81 at the time. Fortunately, other than some bruises and after a lot of tests, she was not hurt. My girlfriend and I studied up hard and learned what you noted - falls are a pretty serious indicator. Hence, one of the things we did was hire a physical therapist to teach her better balance and other things she could do to prevent a fall.

My mom fought us all the way - complaining it wasn't necessary, the exercise were too hard (they weren't, but they did take effort) and that the recommendations - don't carry a large bag (it is effectively a pendulum that swings and can throw off your balance), etc. - were not practical. After doing all we could to get her to see that this is all for her, that one bad fall - with a broken hip say - could change her life forever, we retreated.

She does carry a slightly smaller bag, does the easy exercises (she says), but that's about it. She just doesn't want to talk about it and gets angry if we bring it up. And we have never been aggressive - always talking calmly - and we've helped (found the therapist, set up the appointments, etc.) and tried to wait for the right time - when her mood was right - to get her to see the risk. At the end of the day, she's Quint driving the boat, singing a song, with exhaust smoke billowing hard and the engine burning out, but she's moving forward, so all seems good to her.

Sometimes you just have to let everyone decide for themselves even if their decision seems to go against their best interest. But it's your house, so you get to choose on the grab bars.

 

[sheeplady]

Two years ago, my mom fell walking on the street - she was 81 at the time. Fortunately, other than some bruises and after a lot of tests, she was not hurt. My girlfriend and I studied up hard and learned what you noted - falls are a pretty serious indicator. Hence, one of the things we did was hire a physical therapist to teach her better balance and other things she could do to prevent a fall.

My mom fought us all the way - complaining it wasn't necessary, the exercise were too hard (they weren't, but they did take effort) and that the recommendations - don't carry a large bag (it is effectively a pendulum that swings and can throw off your balance), etc. - were not practical. After doing all we could to get her to see that this is all for her, that one bad fall - with a broken hip say - could change her life forever, we retreated.

She does carry a slightly smaller bag, does the easy exercises (she says), but that's about it. She just doesn't want to talk about it and gets angry if we bring it up. And we have never been aggressive - always talking calmly - and we've helped (found the therapist, set up the appointments, etc.) and tried to wait for the right time - when her mood was right - to get her to see the risk. At the end of the day, she's Quint driving the boat, singing a song, with exhaust smoke billowing hard and the engine burning out, but she's moving forward, so all seems good to her.

Sometimes you just have to let everyone decide for themselves even if their decision seems to go against their best interest. But it's your house, so you get to choose on the grab bars.

This is really common with the installing grab bar scenario. Very few people are able or want to recognize that they need help. A lot of times the people who fight things like grab bars are spouses, often because they are in denial and fear about their loved one aging/ dying. This is not a negative value judgement on my part at all. For some, those grab bars are physical manifestations of aging and eventual death of a loved one (or yourself) that you have to stare at every time you use the bathroom. That's pretty big.

I don't consider myself any more sophisticated than the participants in those research studies (which is what my mother-in-law argued with me, that as a gerontologist I'd be "more open" to putting them in when I need them). So expect that if I or my husband start falling; I like many people, will resist putting those grab bars in because of what they represent. So they go in "before" we need them.

Besides, they have some awesome looking grab bars, not at all institutional looking.

 

[Trenchfriend]

Any of you folks wheelchair users?

Nope, I've got a degree of disability 30, because of Asperger, but I can walk normally with hobble.

 

[Trenchfriend]

Trivial:
Aaargh, headache from cinnamon, at the moment. But, just dizzy and light pressure, luckily. I guess, it's a combination with the more or less "muggy" weather, today. Tomorrow, all will be fine again.

 

[LizzieMaine]

When I'm dictator my first decree will require that all gas pumps have hoses that can reach either side of the car. Either that or all cars will be required to have their fuel filler necks on the same side.

 

[Fading Fast]

When I'm dictator my first decree will require that all gas pumps have hoses that can reach either side of the car. Either that or all cars will be required to have their fuel filler necks on the same side.

While you're at it (and before I'm rounded up and shot), could you please bring some standardization to electronic ports.

 

[Trenchfriend]

And please, banish these odd massmarket fur-collar parkas, which detached the ugly college-jackets, some years ago. I'm allergic to them...

 

[2jakes]

When I'm dictator my first decree will require that all gas pumps have hoses that can reach either side of the car. Either that or all cars will be required to have their fuel filler necks on the same side.

If possible, Madam LizzieMaine,
have the second degree be that
clinics set the temperature
to a comfortable level so that
old folks can sit in the waiting
room without freezing?
Thanks
(waiting for an eye exam right now)

 

[Inkstainedwretch]

I've seen pictures of a gas station designed by Frank Lloyd Wright (!) that had the gas hoses hanging from an overhead gantry. It looks like they would reach any part of the car easily. I don't know why the design never caught on.

 

[vitanola]

What drove home how inaccessible our society is was pushing around our daughter's stroller during chemo. While I had one of those luxury jogging stroller's (easy to push as it was on bike wheels) I could barely lift it, particularly with my daughter in it. (It was lifting it back into the car once versus pushing it for hours... I chose easy to push over easy to lift.)

You don't realize how many modernish businesses are completely inaccessible until you must roll in. Also how some people are jerks- I had plenty of times I was visably struggling trying to get in a door and people would stop and watch me and not even offer to help. And I got lots of rude comments about bringing my stroller into stores because I couldn't physically carry my daughter to find a grocery cart.

Yes, but in my case this is the access stair to the front door of a bungalow which has remained unchanged since 1912.

 

[2jakes]

I've seen pictures of a gas station designed by Frank Lloyd Wright (!) that had the gas hoses hanging from an overhead gantry. It looks like they would reach any part of the car easily. I don't know why the design never caught on.

It makes too much sense and customers is not their main priority today like it was in the
old days.

Back then,
besides attending to your gas tank, they would check the oil, water & tires .

All done with a friendly smile at no extra charge.

You mention this today to the cashier who is mostly inside the building or
is encased in a wire cage....
and he will look at you as if you are a visitor from another planet.

 

[vitanola]

This is really common with the installing grab bar scenario. Very few people are able or want to recognize that they need help. A lot of times the people who fight things like grab bars are spouses, often because they are in denial and fear about their loved one aging/ dying. This is not a negative value judgement on my part at all. For some, those grab bars are physical manifestations of aging and eventual death of a loved one (or yourself) that you have to stare at every time you use the bathroom. That's pretty big.

I don't consider myself any more sophisticated than the participants in those research studies (which is what my mother-in-law argued with me, that as a gerontologist I'd be "more open" to putting them in when I need them). So expect that if I or my husband start falling; I like many people, will resist putting those grab bars in because of what they represent. So they go in "before" we need them.

Besides, they have some awesome looking grab bars, not at all institutional looking.

I have been dealing with this for some years, now. In November of 2011 my mother took a tumble. She didn't hit her head, just fell on her bottom in the bedroom while going to the bathroom in the middle of the night. I lived 200 miles away, and over a series of several telephone calls nagged my father into taking her to the doctor. The Physician said that she was just fine. Two weeks later she awakened unable to speak. A sub-dural hematoma had been growing. Four surgeries later Mom was left with a severely impaired memory and dangerously poor balance. I remodeled the bathroom at my parent's house with a curb-less shower, improved clerances, grab abrs,, and a bidet toilet seat. Even with these modifications Mom needs 24 hour supervision, if not care, so we have more-or-less move in to my parent's home. Needless to say, my father fought every safety modification tooth and nail. We're now to the point of having to have "The Talk" with Dad about driving, and I shudder at the very thought of it.

 

[vitanola]

If you drove a Ford Car you could easily fill the fuel tank from either side.

 

[2jakes]

I have been dealing with this for some years, now. In November of 2011 my mother took a tumble. She didn't hit her head, just fell on her bottom in the bedroom while going to the bathroom in the middle of the night. I lived 200 miles away, and over a series of several telephone calls nagged my father into taking her to the doctor. The Physician said that she was just fine. Two weeks later she awakened unable to speak. A sub-dural hematoma had been growing. Four surgeries later Mom was left with a severely impaired memory and dangerously poor balance. I remodeled the bathroom at my parent's house with a curb-less shower, improved clerances, grab abrs,, and a bidet toilet seat. Even with these modifications Mom needs 24 hour supervision, if not care, so we have more-or-less move in to my parent's home. Needless to say, my father fought every safety modification tooth and nail. We're now to the point of having to have "The Talk" with Dad about driving, and I shudder at the very thought of it.

As you probably know, it won’t be pleasant.
I’ve had “the talk” with my folks, many times.
I could list the things that I would do for them to make it safe & comfortable.

But the bottom line....they refuse or do not want to accept the fact that they are
no longer able to do things like they used to when they were younger.

I cannot really blame them. It’s a hard pill to swallow.

If ever I get to that point, just shoot me and be done with it.


Btw: What Ford do you speak of that enables you to fill up
from either side?
I have a ’39 Ford with the gas cap on the left side only.