Simmons Bilt Shinki Hikaku Horsehide

[Plumbline]

Shinki is shinki, that's the point: shinki is the product of a single tannery, therefore Aero shinki is SB shinki is Buzz Rickson shinki is Good Wear shinki ad nausea. As far as I can tell, only the likes of Buzz Rickson and perhaps Good Wear are able to specify to any extent the grain and finish of shinki hides - the rest of the makers have to take what they are given, which is probably what GW and BR are stipulating.

So therefore ... all Shinki is NOT the same ... I equally know that Shinki have "grades" of leather like most tanneries and therefore must produce multiple finishes - they certainly produce shell cordovan for the footwear market which you would be very unlikely to make a jacket out of ... I don't know the "grades" or "finishes" they produce but I'm sure you could google it to find out. I know from pricing it up a few years ago it's certainly not cheap ... but also not as expensive as you'd think. I remember getting a sample of the Aero Shinki some years ago and I thought it was really good ( it had quite a shiny topcoat ). The SB Shinki seems duller by comparison, very A2 like, it's certainly not plastiky .

The Clayton is smoother ( less grainy ) and the grain is more subtle. It appears slightly deeper in both colour and thickness and is of a slightly softer hand.

SB's Blattenwerk HH is also pretty impressive stuff ( very grainy) .. but was a little too heavy for what I wanted in a CR ... but if heavy Horween CXL is your bag then this is nicer IMHO.

HTH

 

[tropicalbob]

Here's a great "Where's Waldo?" type of game: type "Simmons Bilt", "SB", or "Alexander" into the search engine and see if you can find a thread where a certain "disinterested party" doesn't make a surprise landing and claim disinterest.

 

[A-1]

Shinki tea core Diamond Dave after one year of every day wear:

If I were you, I'd look into the Thedi Leathers stuff! Theodoros is really nice and he can make you a full custom jacket a real good price if you give him your measurements.

 

[Sloan1874]

Great wear & tear. My one isn't anywhere near that in terms of patina, but the tea core is definitely there.

 

[ton312]

Shinki tea core Diamond Dave after one year of every day wear:

If I were you, I'd look into the Thedi Leathers stuff! Theodoros is really nice and he can make you a full custom jacket a real good price if you give him your measurements.

Game over...I might as well just buy Land's End windbreakers from now on. Stunning doesn't even come close to describing that jacket.

 

[Carlos840]

So therefore ... all Shinki is NOT the same ... I equally know that Shinki have "grades" of leather like most tanneries and therefore must produce multiple finishes - they certainly produce shell cordovan for the footwear market which you would be very unlikely to make a jacket out of ... I don't know the "grades" or "finishes" they produce but I'm sure you could google it to find out. I know from pricing it up a few years ago it's certainly not cheap ... but also not as expensive as you'd think. I remember getting a sample of the Aero Shinki some years ago and I thought it was really good ( it had quite a shiny topcoat ). The SB Shinki seems duller by comparison, very A2 like, it's certainly not plastiky .

The Clayton is smoother ( less grainy ) and the grain is more subtle. It appears slightly deeper in both colour and thickness and is of a slightly softer hand.

SB's Blattenwerk HH is also pretty impressive stuff ( very grainy) .. but was a little too heavy for what I wanted in a CR ... but if heavy Horween CXL is your bag then this is nicer IMHO.

HTH

What i meant to say when i first said "Shinki is Shinki and all the same" is that Shinki doesn't do any custom order. You get the leather they have or you don't, but you can't get anything special made for you.
I did read that their consistency is all over the place, and that there is a huge variation from batch to batch, which is why many people choose to topcoat it themselves afterwards.
So really, although you are right to say that all shinki is different, it is not different because each company that uses it ordered something different. It's just their consistency that gives different results.

 

[ButteMT61]

I don't know how many guys here are talking out their backsides, but unless you're a maker who's bought hides from Shinki or anyone else, I'd reckon we don't know what the options really are, and it doesn't matter.
Hides are not aluminum siding or car parts that can be made by the 1000's exactly all the same. Every bloody hide is different, and samples can only get you an idea of what your jacket will look like. If you buy over-processed stuff like a mall jacket, you get more consistent looking jackets. If you get good hides that are not made this way, you get results all over the place - to me, that's the fun of it as nobody's jackets look the same. Not to mention, we all have different reasons for liking/disliking certain characteristics of any given hide/jacket/color.

 

[nick123]

You literally have worn that jacket every day for the last year. A+

 

[Sir Jacket]

Shinki tea core Diamond Dave after one year of every day wear:

If I were you, I'd look into the Thedi Leathers stuff! Theodoros is really nice and he can make you a full custom jacket a real good price if you give him your measurements.

What a beauty. Almost convinces me to start wearing biker jackets again.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

IMHO, the words "holy grail" and "Simmons Bilt" are antithetical and should never appear in the same sentence. Similarly, the words "good investment" and "ponzi scheme" are antithetical and should never appear in the same sentence.

Shinki is arguably to horsehide what A5 Japanese Kobe is to steak. I would never buy an A5 Japanese Kobe steak prepared by Outback Steakhouse. Rather, if I am going to pay for and eat an A5 Japanese Kobe steak, I am going to buy it from an elite steakhouse so as to ensure that the preparation is commensurate with the quality of the raw material. Likewise, if I am going to purchase a "holy grail" jacket made from Shinki HH, I am going to purchase it from an elite manufacturer so as to ensure that the quality of the manufacturing and craftsmanship is commensurate with the quality of the raw material.

This X 1000

Do not compromise in any way. If you are not 100% confident in your purchase, wait and save your money until you can get what you want. I can tell you from experience that compromising is actually more expensive in the long run.

I got a DD jacket that was not made as well as it should have been and I was never truly happy. I sold it and now have a RMC and Himel and I'm pretty darn happy

Also, look at that comparison that Superfluous just posted. The SB is clearly not a grail item.

 

[Carlos840]

The whole "Grail Item" is all relative!

We are all in awe in front of A1's jacket, although it has in my opinion a few details that are far less than perfect (sorry A1, not trying to be a dick, my DD has the same kind of issues). Still, all of us (me included) would probably overlook these defects and be happy with it.

To say that SB cannot be a Grail item is a bit weird concidering the people who make them are people who made grail jackets under another label before. It's like they suddenly forgot to make jackets when AL happened.
I agree some of their new designs are weird at best, and that their history is forever tainted on this forum, but i doubt any of us could spot the difference between an Aero Cafe Racer and a SB Cafe racer if it wasn't for the label.

 

[A-1]

I'm with Carlos here. My jacket is not perfectly executed but it's very sturdy and rugged. As I've already mentioned I think there is no perfection in leather jackets. In my opinion you have to "make" it perfect and yours.

Considering the history of SB, I get that a lot of people are never gonna buy from them. And still I understand the thought of buying from them when the competitive maker has prices that are three times higher. Especially when you live in Europe.

To each his/her own "holy grail". I won't judge anyone else's opinion. Everyone just gotta be happy and live with his/her own decisions.

 

[Sloan1874]

The whole "Grail Item" is all relative!

We are all in awe in front of A1's jacket, although it has in my opinion a few details that are far less than perfect (sorry A1, not trying to be a dick, my DD has the same kind of issues). Still, all of us (me included) would probably overlook these defects and be happy with it.

To say that SB cannot be a Grail item is a bit weird concidering the people who make them are people who made grail jackets under another label before. It's like they suddenly forgot to make jackets when AL happened.
I agree some of their new designs are weird at best, and that their history is forever tainted on this forum, but i doubt any of us could spot the difference between an Aero Cafe Racer and a SB Cafe racer if it wasn't for the label.

You've actually picked the one jacket that, if my memory's correct, when Ken came back to the company he redesigned the collar on to make it more comfortable. On top of that, you have all the redesigned A-2s and Irvins, tweaked patterns on other popular jackets, and not forgetting the addition of upwards of 40 designs.
I would also say that the presence of Denny, Murray et al, the quality control is a lot more stringent than under the old / AL regime, which seemed to have a 'that'll do' attitude. Any long time members here will recall, storse aside, that in the run up to everything going to pot, we were seeing pics here of jackets with cut marks, ropy stitching and panels that were covered in scars and marks.
Maybe SB/AL/BB has a different policy on hide choice and quality control - I'm told they're very resistant to returns nowadays - but the idea that because they share former staff and some patterns, the two of them are simply producing the same output just isn't correct.

 

[red devil]

So who makes grail items? Is there a select group of makers?
If you really want a grail item, then maybe you should go on a quest for it as the knights of the round table did back then. They certainly did not buy it from a shop!
Joke aside, I don't think that the perfect jacket exists, only one that is good enough for your needs... or several

 

[frenchman]

that leather looks like a redye...

 

[Damon B]

Oops, sorry, newbie here, im with the last post, these 'grail' jackets sound amazing, alas ill make do with my favourites one of which is an Aero, the other, brace yourselves, a Simmons Bilt, sorry but it is. Seriously tho, im not bezzie mates with anyone at Aero or SB so ill get what I want from whoever is supplying it as long as I can afford it. Stuff happens in business all the time, if we really thought to much about everything they'd all go bust coz no one would buy anything.

 

[Sloan1874]

I think you're not quite getting the spirit of the Lounge there, Damon.

 

[handymike]

The "Grail" concept is tricky. It involves more than online shopping for an expensive jacket.
It is about the learning process, friends you make, relationships, and experiences with the maker as well.
A quest isn't completed by dropping by the TFL to "browse" a few threads, and then clicking to purchase a $1K garment.
...or maybe it is, what do I know?

 

[Damon B]

Hmm, yep, perhaps this isnt really my thing.

 

[ButteMT61]

Yeah, "grail" in terms of a jacket or any item is really kinda lol'able. My grail is not yours, and vice-versa. A grail need not be the most expensive, not the most perfectly made. I'd still rather have my '69 Z/28 back than a new Camaro, which is likely 10x more well built, 10x more reliable, etc., but just not "me". I think it's time to put to rest all the BS - anyone who'd like to search this place can get all the backdrop they need. I don't like what some folks have done in the name of profit, but as was said, most companies are probably guilty of all sorts of things and really, this is in the past.
Doesn't mean I'll ever try to push anyone towards a few makers I could focus on, but I'm also not going to cloud-up every thread with past BS.
Karma is a b*tch. It's already shown it's impact on some. Let's get back to showing, talking, and enjoying the jackets fellers and ladies. I've had enough negativity this last year to last me 10. Peace my friends.