Simmons Bilt Shinki Hikaku Horsehide

[regius]

While this thread is all about the up and up (top quality, high prestige leather/HH), I found that the type of dull russet mass market steerhide/horsehide used on 50s-60s mall jackets to be very desirable. Here's what I think, the Horween CXL has been around for a long time (at least the chemical formula), but is there evidence that it was used as garment leather back in the days? i've had 40s motorcycle jacket in black that feels like Horween but it's hard to say. Instead, the majority of the vintage jackets around are of a flat/dull brick/russet color, with a finish. Blatt, Irvin Forster, Sears, Wards, and the military service shoes, all seem to use this kind of steer/horse. I personally like it very much, for it wrinkles nicely and while it's thick it pliable (won't bounce back), and that the top glaze rubs off and leaving an uneven, worn look that ELC manually creates. This kind is superior to CXL for garment also in that it is not so impregnated with wax as CXL, so that in cold weather, your body heat transduces through it and the outside doesn't feel cold, unlike the frozen wax on the CXL. I wonder if we can still source this kind of leather today? I believe so because at least WPG's repro service shoes still use it.

 

[regius]

Something like this http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u67/Hawkeye_2003/halfbelt021.jpg

 

[nick123]

While this thread is all about the up and up (top quality, high prestige leather/HH), I found that the type of dull russet mass market steerhide/horsehide used on 50s-60s mall jackets to be very desirable. Here's what I think, the Horween CXL has been around for a long time (at least the chemical formula), but is there evidence that it was used as garment leather back in the days? i've had 40s motorcycle jacket in black that feels like Horween but it's hard to say. Instead, the majority of the vintage jackets around are of a flat/dull brick/russet color, with a finish. Blatt, Irvin Forster, Sears, Wards, and the military service shoes, all seem to use this kind of steer/horse. I personally like it very much, for it wrinkles nicely and while it's thick it pliable (won't bounce back), and that the top glaze rubs off and leaving an uneven, worn look that ELC manually creates. This kind is superior to CXL for garment also in that it is not so impregnated with wax as CXL, so that in cold weather, your body heat transduces through it and the outside doesn't feel cold, unlike the frozen wax on the CXL. I wonder if we can still source this kind of leather today? I believe so because at least WPG's repro service shoes still use it.

I agree. I had an AN-6552 that was flat, dull, etc in color variation but the medium brown color was just the most elegant and pleasing shade of brown to my eye. But there is a place for everything and you need all kinds of leathers!

 

[regius]

and this russet service leather is just what i'm looking for!!

 

[Plumbline]

As I've posted before ... in around 30 years of collecting and wearing vintage leather jackets I've NEVER seen a vintage (1930-'s - 50's) leather jacket made from Horween Heavy FQHH / Steer Leather (3-5oz). As far as I can tell from discussions the Horween products were primarily used for footwear ( both high end and industrial ), industrial products. .. and I've seen lots of original leather gaskets, Whiting refinery had a whole selection in old stock made from undyed and unfinished leather from Horween ..... luggage items and sporting goods ( Baseball items and American footballs) ... I'm sure Skip / Nick could fill in on more details but it would appear that is was a "discovery" of the retro jacket manufacturers in the mid 90's that led to the resurgence in the use of Horsehide for jackets and clothing. I don't recall any Horsehide M/C jackets of note in the 70's, 80's and early 90's ... almost all were sheep, cow or steer hide ( 1.0 - 1.4mm ) with the best quality items being from Brazilian bovine 1.2-1.3mm ( Kushitani / RS Taichi etc. etc. )

None of the vintage jackets I've collected were of anything comparable in weight save some German M/C jackets and a couple of really heavy French work coats. My two original bucos ( PJ-27's) were no-where near as heavy and were certainly NOT CXL and showed some quite brutal cracking at the collar and cuffs which I've never seen on CXL and also had an almost "painted on" topcoat.

Don't get me wrong .. I LOVE the Horween products for jackets .. it's amazingly thick and tough and develops a very nice Patina in time ... I simply haven't seen anything this heavy on genuine vintage jackets. Most when mic'd up ( even NOS originals with little or no wear ) have come in at 2oz - 3oz (0.8mm - 1.2mm) and many even thinner ( especially specialist hides like deer and goat ) .... in addition many of these leathers were either splits or top grain ( as opposed to the fabled FULL Grain ) .... these were made to a budget and many of the original Sears / MW jackets were much like the derided "mall jackets" of today.

Just MHO .... I just get a sense from many ( including many of the retro manufacturers ) that jackets of the golden era were made from Shinki HH and sewn together to an impeccable standard and my experience is that this was simply NOT the case and in fact there is much more commonality with the "Mall Jackets" than many on here would be happy to admit

Happy New Year

 

[devilish]

While some of these vintage jackets pre-dated the true 'shopping mall'. They obviously were indeed department store own brands. Probably made by several different manufacturers over time. I suspect that within 1st World countries, many of the tanning processes have disappeared now. Due to health and environmental concerns. Thus leaving a gap that had to be filled by something when the repro business started to boom.
Moreover the quality of workmanship could indeed be hit or miss but definitely more hit than most of today's 'mall jackets'. During the golden era of vintage, most workers took pride in what they produced. At least that's how it seems to me.
I recently owned an early 50's Hercules. This jacket was easily as heavy as any modern repro but it did differ in that it had the scuffed off topcoat look that does seem virtually impossible to properly achieve nowadays. Either through actual wear or pre-distressing. Leather nowadays will wear off it's finish but it always seems in a much smoother way, to me. The leather still maintains something of a sheen. True vintage always looks 'roughed up' when unconditioned or messed around with. Something I have noticed that a lot of Japanese collectors/dealers seem to do? Most of those I follow on IG almost always seem to have been 'shined up' in some way.

 

[handymike]

Goodwear has a semi-analine one like that...LHJ104. Here it is next to J102

@devilish is right that most tanning methods used back then were environmentally toxic, so its very difficult to replicate the finish exactly. Maybe LW's "russet" is close too (in color).

 

[Pdxgeo]

The early Sears/MW etc jackets were US made in union factories with good QC departments. Same for the tanneries. Workers took pride in their product


Mall mentality today is a race to the bottom. Not knocking Chinese workers, they have skills, but corporate greed has long since outpaced true pride in craftmanship, with some wonderfully noteable exceptions (top line schott for example).

Mall brands want cheap leather AND cheap labor so they can maximize profits. Companies spend time and energy finding ways to make their products desireable through marketing not because they will last lifetimes.

What this guy did to Aero is in line with that dog eat dog mentality and while their quality is high and their leather top notch their ethics leave a lot to be desired and I for one say screw em.

 

[tmitchell59]

Vintage Jackets are no different than Jackets today; good and bad, cheap/expensive. I certainly see different quality in different labels, again same as today. Not all vintage jackets are equal. same today.

I've got a mid 50s Penneys branded Horsehide jacket that was a budget model no doubt. Probably a mall jacket of the day. Yet it is a favorite because I like the Fit, the Style, the Weight, the Color. I'll admit too, that I've seen a few mall jackets I thought were pretty interesting.

Goatskin seems to be the Exotic leather pre-war. The most interesting designed Jackets I've owned have been Proudly made of Goat.

Civilian Jackets were pretty civilized for weight and such. They made leather Jackets for different uses and climates, which I don't quite see today. They made Wind Breaker to heavy sheep lined Horsehide jackets. They also made low grade Horsehide labeled leather jackets. The heavy Horse is on the MC Jackets and primary Work jacket. They are made to a different standard for their purpose.

There is a lot of diversity in styles today, but that can come with a lot of quality issues. In the past there seems to be diversity and quality.

 

[regius]

I know this thread is about SB's shinki, but anyone handled their goat? their black goat looks really fat and thick, but my experience with an A2 of seal goat from the Alxander days was not too good, thin and soft. Aero's goat flight jackets is drapey too, it seems gone was the stiff thick goat days!

 

[regius]

Hello all,
OK, thanks a lot for your time and help!! You convinced me to contact Simmons Bilt as the Shinki is a) not feeling like plastic, b) is high quality and should be the same like RMC and other jacket makers offer, c) Simmons Bilt offer same quality as Aero, d) Simmons Bilt offer the Shinki jackets to a very attractive price compared to all other Shinki maker (due to Brexit the exchange rate is also attractive and I live in the EU). I guess I'm going for a Simmons Bilt made of Red/Brown or even a Red/Brown/Black which Himel Bros offer and which I really like - here is the link and I hope they can offer it: (http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/.../Jackets/HimelHeron1_zps75e25493.jpg~original). What do you think? Is this a good choice for a kind of holy grail jacket? I hope I will get a reply by SB soon
Thank you again for your help!!
Kind regards,
Robbie

Robbie, time has passed, did you get a reply from SB?

 

[Sloan1874]

I know this thread is about SB's shinki, but anyone handled their goat? their black goat looks really fat and thick, but my experience with an A2 of seal goat from the Alxander days was not too good, thin and soft. Aero's goat flight jackets is drapey too, it seems gone was the stiff thick goat days!

A really good, consistent source of goat is hard to find, I'm told. Once they've got one, makers tend to hang for dear life to it!

 

[rocketeer]

I know this thread is about SB's shinki, but anyone handled their goat? their black goat looks really fat and thick, but my experience with an A2 of seal goat from the Alxander days was not too good, thin and soft. Aero's goat flight jackets is drapey too, it seems gone was the stiff thick goat days!

having had a few original G1s, I thought goat was never thick and stiff. My WWII era Gordon & Ferguson M422A was rather thin and crackly and my 50s G1 was very pliable but still not thick. My Nam era G1(it may have been later?) was thick but may have been that embossed goat cowhide used for later production jackets(bellow)
s.

 

[regius]

having had a few original G1s, I thought goat was never thick and stiff. My WWII era Gordon & Ferguson M422A was rather thin and crackly and my 50s G1 was very pliable but still not thick. My Nam era G1(it may have been later?) was thick but may have been that embossed goat cowhide used for later production jackets(bellow)
s.

all depends on tanning and prepnig, goat can be thick as you want. I source from a local 150 years old veg tannary, theere's all kinds of texture and thickness/stiffness. Aero once send me a swatch of their previous goat, it was almost like the jerky HH. I also had an East German trench coat made of green goat, the whole full body length coat out of goat! It was thick and heavy as hell.

 

[regius]

According to the tannery's terminology, it's like FQHH vs tumbled FQHH, they tumble the goat too if you want it softer.

 

[Sloan1874]

Not sure you'd need to tumble goat, would you? It arrives as close to ready-to-wear as you're going to get.

 

[regius]

Not sure you'd need to tumble goat, would you? It arrives as close to ready-to-wear as you're going to get.

I think that's because it's tumbled.

 

[regius]

A different topic: back to Simmons Bilt. about their patterns, the Alexander videos seems to show their jackets are more mobile than Aero's. They can raise the arms without lifting the body, is this a real thing?

 

[Sloan1874]

The main difference between Aero and AL's patterns, the ones that they stole at least, is that Will changed the size tags so that 38 was tagged as a 40. Meant that they were automatically 'slim fitting', or as AL would have it 'vintage style with a modern updated fit'. There was a forensic examination of an AL jacket by a Heriot Watt lecturer, and right down to the internal stitching, she deemed it to be nigh-on identical.

 

[Grayland]

A different topic: back to Simmons Bilt. about their patterns, the Alexander videos seems to show their jackets are more mobile than Aero's. They can raise the arms without lifting the body, is this a real thing?

I think it all comes down to the cut and design, regardless of the maker. It seems the Aero premier line has higher armholes, which should eliminate the bat wing effect that can be present on some jackets. My Aero LHB shows a bit of bat wing, but it isn't designed as a trim-fitting jacket - and how often does anyone really walk around with their arms up anyway?