Side By Side/ Hat Comparisons

[Joshbru3]

AnA, great writeup! I do love both hats, however my favorite is the Cavanagh due to the 1930's shape and features. Like you, I love tall and straight crowns. Parker makes some wonderful hats and I can assure you the difference in felt quality, color saturation, and denseness is a factor that unfortunately many American hatters have to deal with. Your Cavanagh most likely doesn't have any beaver in it, or if it does, a VERY small amount. It is most likely a rabbit/wild hare mix which is what most hats from the early 20th century were made out of. Some of the best hats in my collection are rabbit/wild hare. I'm glad you can see that incredible differences between vintage felt and modern day felt. Its just a guess, but I would assume that Parker gets his felt from Winchester in Tennessee. Most hatters get their felt from Winchester as they are one of the only producers of Raw felt bodies left in the USA. Stetson/Resistol makes their own bodies, but I do not believe they will sell the bodies to outside hatters. I could be wrong, but I believe that Stetson/Resistol only makes bodies to use for their own hats. Biltmore used to make their own bodies in Canada but I believe that has fallen by the way side. Of course Akubra makes their own bodies, but again, I think only for their own use. Winchester used to make hat bodies for the Hat Corporation of America starting in the 50's I believe and they used to make some GREAT stuff. Unfortunately due to strict federal environmental regulations, they are unable to used the same dyes as they once could and therefore the color saturation of the hat bodies are not even close to how they used to be. Also, the current day Winchester hat bodies are felted must LESS dense as they once were or as most hat bodies were felted. In order to process the felt through the rollers, hot water, etc, more times to make a denser body, they would have to use more fur, and pay more people more labor to process the bodies for longer. Unfortunately as the worlds population of men stopped wearing hats, the demand for hats dropped and the demand for raw bodies as a whole dropped as well. In order to keep prices low, Winchester can't make the same bodies as they once could. The fur is the same, the process is different and therefore resulting in a different felt body. Winchester was making lightweight bodies for a while, but they were having problems with breakage. I would assume because the felt wasn't felted densely enough.

 

[m0nk]

I can confirm that Parker's standard rabbit bodies are Winchester, as he's said as much. His vintage weight rabbit is the Fespa rabbit/wild hare blend that many of the other hatters use as well. I'm not sure where he gets his beaver felt bodies, but I'll be getting a beaver in granite soon. I had considered going with the Fespa vintage weight, but decided that the little extra strength behind a beaver felt, at the same price, might be the best bet.

 

[gtdean48]

I can confirm that Parker's standard rabbit bodies are Winchester, as he's said as much. His vintage weight rabbit is the Fespa rabbit/wild hare blend that many of the other hatters use as well. I'm not sure where he gets his beaver felt bodies, but I'll be getting a beaver in granite soon. I had considered going with the Fespa vintage weight, but decided that the little extra strength behind a beaver felt, at the same price, might be the best bet.

Given his prices, he is getting beaver bodies from Winchester also...

 

[gtdean48]

.... Also, the current day Winchester hat bodies are felted must LESS dense as they once were or as most hat bodies were felted. In order to process the felt through the rollers, hot water, etc, more times to make a denser body, they would have to use more fur, and pay more people more labor to process the bodies for longer. Unfortunately as the worlds population of men stopped wearing hats, the demand for hats dropped and the demand for raw bodies as a whole dropped as well. In order to keep prices low, Winchester can't make the same bodies as they once could. The fur is the same, the process is different and therefore resulting in a different felt body. Winchester was making lightweight bodies for a while, but they were having problems with breakage. I would assume because the felt wasn't felted densely enough.

Also, hat companies used to be able to let the felt bodies age for longer periods of time, like a year or more, so the felt continued felting before the hatters got them to work with. Felt bodies got a better starting point in days passed that they don't get today....

 

[DJH]

Thanks for the writeup, AnA - very well done.

Like Josh, I'd choose the Cavanagh if I had to pick one, the the FP is a nicely done hat as well. Both have a nice look to them.

It is great that we can still track down classic vintage hats as well as commission new ones from some of the skilled hatmakers that are keeping the craft alive.

I have an idea for a cool side-by-side myself, just have to wait for one of the hats to be made

 

[TomS]

Good idea here, ty.

 

[m0nk]

Thanks for the writeup, AnA - very well done.

Like Josh, I'd choose the Cavanagh if I had to pick one, the the FP is a nicely done hat as well. Both have a nice look to them.

It is great that we can still track down classic vintage hats as well as commission new ones from some of the skilled hatmakers that are keeping the craft alive.

I have an idea for a cool side-by-side myself, just have to wait for one of the hats to be made

I agree there on all counts. I may wait for my Beaver FPH to be done to do a side-by-side of that with my Akubra Fed IV in Moonstone, or just do the Fed IV with my Whippet. I think either the vintage, or custom-made-like-vintage is a great comparison to modern standard felts.

 

[mayserwegener]

Josh, Great write up! This is also the case at TONAK. I saw the complete process from fur plet to finished hat. They wouldn't show me where they mixed their dyes. They were secretive about that process. I know with Velour finishes they (all the makers) were always trying (going back to early 1920s) to reduce the number of processes to save on labor cost. I definitely believe this eventually had a big impact on the final product.

 

[Joshbru3]

Also, hat companies used to be able to let the felt bodies age for longer periods of time, like a year or more, so the felt continued felting before the hatters got them to work with. Felt bodies got a better starting point in days passed that they don't get today....

Ah, yes!! I always forget about the aging of the bodies. Thanks for adding that, Tom. I would be willing to bet that the only "aging" that the hat bodies get today is the period of time it takes to get from the raw body factory to the blocking/trimming factory.

 

[Joshbru3]

Josh, Great write up! This is also the case at TONAK. I saw the complete process from fur plet to finished hat. They wouldn't show me where they mixed their dyes. They were secretive about that process. I know with Velour finishes they (all the makers) were always trying (going back to early 1920s) to reduce the number of processes to save on labor cost. I definitely believe this eventually had a big impact on the final product.

Thanks, Steve!! I completely agree that saving money on labor costs has a huge impact on the final product. I mean, companies ALWAYS tried to save money with materials, processing, etc, but it seemed like they understood that the time and labor needed to be spend in the rolling and processing of the felt body for a much denser, nicer hat. I kind of feel that's why modern day hat companies tend to use a bit more shellac in their hats. If you put enough shellac in any felt, it will hold shape, but its pretty obvious that the quality isn't there. I know that Graham gets his bodies from Portugal and they are closest thing to a vintage felt body that I have seen. I would imagine that the environmental restrictions in Portugal are much different than the ones here in America. I also feel that they process the felt a bit more. As far a Winchester is concerned, I completely understand if they are limited to the type of dyes they can currently use, but it seems to me that hatters would be willing to pay a little more for a better felted body. In turn, I'm sure customers wouldn't have a problem with paying a bit more for a much better felted hat. Or at least give hatters the option to buy a better grade of body, no matter if its beaver or rabbit.

 

[Rabbit]

As far a Winchester is concerned, I completely understand if they are limited to the type of dyes they can currently use, but it seems to me that hatters would be willing to pay a little more for a better felted body. In turn, I'm sure customers wouldn't have a problem with paying a bit more for a much better felted hat. Or at least give hatters the option to buy a better grade of body, no matter if its beaver or rabbit.

I quite agree. Can't speak for the others, but for one would be all for it.

Still, the high quality of the Winchester felts, especially the lightweights, is nothing to sneeze at.

 

[Joshbru3]

I quite agree. Can't speak for the others, but for one would be all for it.

Still, the high quality of the Winchester felts, especially the lightweights, is nothing to sneeze at.

Please don't get me wrong, I think Winchester makes a good product and they still make it in America which says a lot about the company itself. I just think with a bit of tweaking, they can put out a product that stands up to vintage felt. Maybe not color wise, but felt wise.

 

[Rabbit]

Please don't get me wrong, I think Winchester makes a good product and they still make it in America which says a lot about the company itself. I just think with a bit of tweaking, they can put out a product that stands up to vintage felt. Maybe not color wise, but felt wise.

Sure, I knew exactly what you meant. Agree 100%.

 

[danofarlington]

Yeah, but from their point of view, what exactly would the market be? TFL members would be insufficient to ramp up their production lines. To them, it is probably unclear where the demand would come from.

 

[Alive'n'Amplified]

Thank you for the synopsis, Josh. Yes, he came out when we finalized the details and explained that he used Winchester felts. I thought that was very honest of him to reveal that. When I had seen some modern Stetsons and Dobbs in a local Western store, after having purchased several of my vintage hats, I noticed that the felt was definitely thicker and less dense at the same time. I thought it was more unfortunate than anything, because it's business. And if you can cut back on a process or a material to save a buck and increase efficiency, then that's what you're going to do. Thank goodness for the custom hatters!

Oh, and yes, I do choose the Cavanagh as my favorite.

 

[newturnofphrase]

Prodigal son of ancient hats.

What a great idea for a thread, Alan. I'm going to drag it back even further than the initial homburgs, all the way back to the 19th century. I have posted pictures of both of these hats in other threads. I've been quite interested to learn the history of hats in the US, and these are both excellent historical examples.

These hats make good comparators for several reasons:
- They are top hats that were made by two of the most prominent hatters in the US at the time, Knox and Dunlap.
- Both display prodigious quality of materials and construction.
- They have many similarities in craftsmanship, but also many things make each unique.
- They display how much can change stylistically for the same type of hat in a matter of a few decades.

Dunlap was, in a way, the prodigal son of Knox. Robert Dunlap learned his trade from and worked for Charles Knox as a hat manufacturer and salesperson in the mid 1800s, finally getting fed up when Knox refused a $3/week raise. Dunlap formed his own company, and it quickly became the premier style-setter and manufacturer of fashionable silk hats by the 1890s. In the 1910s, Dunlap hats had a fall from grace and was bought by Knox, returning to the company that spawned it, and almost entirely disappeared thereafter.

The brown top hat was likely made at the height of Dunlap's popularity, in the 1880s-1890s period. Hats of this period still retained the height of the Civil War era stovepipe but had returned to concave crown construction. Toppers from the 1880s had large, swooping brims. Brown and grey silk hats were much more common. The black top hat was made in the 1930s, when top hats were on the way out and soft felt fedoras had taken over. The style was more conservative and formal then, as the hats were no-longer a fashionable style, with a shorter crown and flatter brim. This Knox example was sold at the raleigh haberdasher, a well documented store in Washington DC that served politicians, diplomats and others. Both hats are also large sizes (59 and 61-2 respectively), extremely rare for that era.

The Dunlap represents the top hat at the peak of its stylistic evolution. The model pictured was likely a trendsetter, as Dunlap's styles were so popular they were generally copied by competitors.

The craftsmanship of both is extremely precise and does not bear instructive comparison, but you can already see the first signs of inferior mid-20th century top hats beginning to take root in the shape and construction of the Knox. If the Dunlap represents the American top hat at its best, then the Knox is its venerable twilight years before the indignities of historical relegation.

edit: corrected the date of the black top hat. Thanks Brad!

 

[The Good]

Thank you for showing the top hats, that was very fascinating history. I likely won't own one, but I admire whenever they're still worn to today's formal events, few as they are.

 

[newturnofphrase]

Thank you for showing the top hats, that was very fascinating history. I likely won't own one, but I admire whenever they're still worn to today's formal events, few as they are.

Thanks! It's a dead style; for day-to-day purposes you might as well wear a tricorn or a bearskin. There is only one event where they're still required, Ascot, and even there more people just get the cheap gray ones. I collect them out of an aesthetic appreciation for the style and an interest in the history.

 

[Brad Bowers]

Love that Dunlap! A point of clarification, though: The Knox is post-1932, made by Hat Corporation of America after Cavanagh-Dobbs, Inc. bought them out. It has the mid- to late-'30s sweatband and label hallmarks of HCA top hats.



Brad

 

[newturnofphrase]

Great information Brad, thanks! I've updated the post accordingly.