Side By Side/ Hat Comparisons

[hatophile]

Wow, nice examples Justin.

 

[g.durand]

Justin and Alan, thanks for sharing those fine specimens.

 

[Chepstow]

Justin and Alan, thanks for sharing those fine specimens.

What Michael says great comparison Justin and Alan!



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[bowlerman]

Really incredible displays, very interesting comparisons.

The following is not the usual type of comparison, but rather trying to see how a different crease alters the overall effect.

I've been thinking a lot about dimensions and proportions, spurred by the tangent that has been taking place in the VS hall of fame thread, but thought the conversation might be better here. Nik (Rabbit)'s commentary inspired me to attempt some more accurate measurements.

I still find myself trying to hone in on the perfect dimensions for me, and discovered that I just don't like the high crowns on my head as much as in the hand anymore. My one 52 block that works for me is my Falcon Park Black Cherry lord's hat.

My Falcon Park Virtuoso was blocked beautifully on the 52 as well, but the bunny fur has not retained its shape, and I can't get the original crease back without giving it a high arch and deeper V, which doesn't work for me. So I reshaped it to resemble the pinched telescope of my Buckaroo hat and I think it works better. much lower crease.

So for starters, here's the same hat, compared to itself. I measure a 5 3/4" open crown, and somewhere between 5 1/16" and 5 1/4" at its highest crease point. 1 5/8" ribbon.

Here's how I lowered it:

Sorry for all the selfies.

 

[Joao Encarnado]

A recent discussion caused me to review some Stetson hats in my collection for their brim width. While the 1960s saw brim widths (and hat sales in general) undergo rapid shrinkage, it seemed to me that in the 1950s the popular Stetson western models had stable dimensions - 2 5/8" for the Stratoliner, 2 7/8" for the Open Road, 3 1/2" for the raw edge XXX... westerns. Was there wider variation? Or are the variances shown in our FL samples due to the limits of tolerance for dimensions in forming the bodies and cutting the brims? I took out a ruler to make some measurements:

Duly noted. Alas I have parted ways with most of my 1950s Stetsons so my sampling is not up to the question... which is, did Stetson make small adjustments in the brim width of their popular dress western models from the post-war to 1960 era, or is the variation seen due to manufacturing tolerance. I guess it is not a particularly interesting question - yet some here are very sensitive to the width of their brim and it made me wonder. Here is a sample posted by Carouselvic in the Open Road thread the other day

You might be on something. I think it’s hard to find a vintage hat with 4” brim.
If I recall correctly I have read somewhere on a add or catalog that westerns were made with 3,5” but if anyone wanted a 4” brim, they had to pay $10 or $20 more for it.

 

[Rabbit]

Really incredible displays, very interesting comparisons.

The following is not the usual type of comparison, but rather trying to see how a different crease alters the overall effect.

I've been thinking a lot about dimensions and proportions, spurred by the tangent that has been taking place in the VS hall of fame thread, but thought the conversation might be better here. Nik (Rabbit)'s commentary inspired me to attempt some more accurate measurements.

I still find myself trying to hone in on the perfect dimensions for me, and discovered that I just don't like the high crowns on my head as much as in the hand anymore. My one 52 block that works for me is my Falcon Park Black Cherry lord's hat.

My Falcon Park Virtuoso was blocked beautifully on the 52 as well, but the bunny fur has not retained its shape, and I can't get the original crease back without giving it a high arch and deeper V, which doesn't work for me. So I reshaped it to resemble the pinched telescope of my Buckaroo hat and I think it works better. much lower crease.

So for starters, here's the same hat, compared to itself. I measure a 5 3/4" open crown, and somewhere between 5 1/16" and 5 1/4" at its highest crease point. 1 5/8" ribbon.

I like this kind of comparison, Jeff.
5 1/16"+ creased is a lot of crown. No wonder you decided to lower it.
The new crease looks a bit crooked in the back; if playing with the center dent (lower in the back) doesn't help, you could try to get the thing back to open crown. I think it can be done even without a block, but no guarantees for this amateur technique:

I had good results by first removing the liner*, popping the crown open, then stuffing the inside with crumpled newspaper until it's solid. Then steam the crown, from the outside of course, applying even pressure on the felt from inside (using your hands to press the newspaper against the felt) as you go along the various sections of the crown. Just don't overdo it, a quick steam is quite enough. When you feel the felt giving in, move to the next area.
Once the hat is freshly steamed to open crown, you might be lucky and the felt could react to a dry crease - assuming it didn't do so before, being dressweight felt.

* That's to avoid getting the liner crumpled during steaming with all the newspaper stuffed inside. If the liner material is a bit stiff, maybe you can risk leaving it where it is, I'm not sure.

 

[TheDane]

May I recommend the good old "hatter tool": The soup ladle

A ladle inside the crown acts a bit like the top of a block, though it won't fit the crown as the correct block would. Therefore you must move the ladle around to get a good result. You can't block a hat with a soup ladle, but it works wonders, when you want to freshen up the tip of an open crown. I haven't tried Nik's trick with the newspapers, but our tricks are actually quite alike. One and the same goal ... just two alternative tools to achieve it.

 

[Rabbit]

The soup ladle, I'll have to remember that. Great idea. The newspaper method has its limit at the pinched tip. I'm sure the pressure on the tip of the crown created by this "hatter's tool" works much better.

 

[alanfgag]

May I recommend the good old "hatter tool": The soup ladle

I never leave home without one.

Works well... I've considered clamping a wide one to my workbench to leave hands free for moving the hat.

 

[TheDane]

I never leave home without one.

Works well... I've considered clamping a wide one to my workbench to leave hands free for moving the hat.

Great idea. I tried to work on a new portable concept, "Instant Ladle - just add water and stir" - but I think your idea holds greater potential

 

[bowlerman]

Excellent advice on all counts! A little courage goes a long way. I reblocked the hat on my only block, a vintage 6" 52, I think, with the help of a serving spoon. Not perfect but I think it was effective. I'll post pics soon. In the meantime here's how the hat stands right now.


Ok, here's the abridged process:

I know this process kind of lies between the conversion thread and this comparison thread, but I thought it leaned more this way.

 

[TheDane]

That's the thing with musicians ... they count best below 4

I think it's a #25 block, not a #52. I don't own a #25, and the catalog just at hand doesn't mention it either. It seems more tapered than a #52, but I like the look of the result

 

[TheDane]

Most of our modern digi-cameras are equiped with a wide angle lense. They tend to distort the geometry of the motif - the closer you get to the motif, the more distortion. This is especially true, when you're not exactly on axis with the motif. That's why it's so hard to guess the brim width from pictures on eBay - and to estimate the amount of taper to the crown.

A very good picture of a #52 block is this one of Brad's (the dark on the right). I can "snif", that it was taken with an Olympus @ 5.8mm focal length, but I don't know the diameter of the sensor, so I can't tell how wide angled the lense actually is. Anyway it looks pretty true to dimensions, and distortion is not too heavy (probably cropped quite a bit). The side view is least distorted.

How does that look, compared to your #25?

 

[Rabbit]

Your "re-blocking" looks great, Jeff! From the looks of the open crowned hat, I'd say that a slightly deeper center dent would get the hat front/ back pretty straight (in profile view), and the sides would still not taper inward despite the deeper center dent. The way it's creased now, it looks a bit high. I'm not saying it doesn't look good, it just looks higher than usual.

 

[bowlerman]

Ha! Thanks guys. I swear I'm not dyslexic. For some reason I thought I remembered someone commenting that the numbers may have been stamped in reverse on the block, but you're right, it doesn't look quite as square shouldered as brads. I'm happy that the exaggerated crown arch is gone, and the it's more of a softer curve.
Also, I think Parker did use a 52 for this hat, with a soft an high center dent. I may try and deepen the center crease but very carefully, as I don't want to make it uber defined.


Updated with photos of the block:

It does seem pretty straight sided to me.

Ole, you're right on about the lens distortion issue. I wish I had a better way to view proportions, because my arm's not long enough. The timer function is useful as long as I have a spot of desirable height on which to rest the camera. My camera isn't anything spectacular, a Canon powershot SX160 IS.

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[bowlerman]

Here is a good profile shot of how it arrived when I first got it. Just perfect.

 

[ManofKent]

Nice job Jeff.

 

[Landman]

The soup ladle, I'll have to remember that. Great idea. The newspaper method has its limit at the pinched tip. I'm sure the pressure on the tip of the crown created by this "hatter's tool" works much better.

I have used a soup ladle and even a small curved plastic spatula. Both work great for fixing specific areas. You might want to try inflating a balloon in the crown if you want to fully expand it without removing the sweatband. That's worked pretty good for me the few times I tried it.

 

[Garrett]

Heathered felt smack down (30's Mystery make vs 40's/50's Stetson)

Obviously they were going for the same thing here -

Specs:

Mystery Make

2 1/4" brim with triple stitch

5/8" ribbon

5" crown (with current bash)





Stetson Railbird

2 3/8" brim with triple stitch brim (wider spacing stitch and somewhat uneven)

1" ribbon

5" crown (with current bash)





both felts are light-weight heathered tan (Stetson is slightly lighter shade)


The mystery make is of higher quality though not by much. This style can be seen on Bing Crosby in 1942's Holiday Inn (before it was remade into White Christmas)

 

[Joshbru3]

GREAT comparison, Garrett!! That un-named heather is really special. I need to find myself a 50's Heather Railbird so I can re-block it into something 30's style. Both are beautiful hats. I have always had a special place in my heart for Heather felts.