should stores charge for plastic bags?

[Miss Neecerie]

And you aren't barred by law from becoming a homeowner, I move people from renters to owners every day. If you can't afford to own in your town you might be able to save up and do it somewhere else. If you can't earn enough, think about changing jobs or moving where the wages are higher. Life is hard and nothing says you won't have to scrimp, save and suffer to get what you want. Or that even if you struggle your dreams will come true.



No one is forced into anything, except perhaps by the vagaries of life itself. Those aren't compensatable.

These two statements are rather incompatible in my opinion....Scrimp, save, struggle...your dreams may not come true or even -close- to it......but life dictates that the crud you get dealt in life...is just part of it....so erm suck it up and make your way up the scale.

You do realise that there are people scrimping and saving -just to eat and have any sort of shelter- owning is so far beyond the vast masses of people.....although I suspect you would just tell them it was their poor planning, or poor education and they should just figure something out.

Obviously things are -way- different in Alaska....

 

[carebear]

Or life in a capitalistic society w/ a real estate investment market that has boomed since the war began.

I can assure you, that when officially informed you that you must vacate your home for a new basketball stadium, financial compensation doesnt pay for a life of memories in a beloved home.

Well, that's why I'm a libertarian. I don't believe the government should have the ability to forcibly take your property for rpivate OR public use. If they or the arena owners can't buy you out voluntarily, they should have to look elsewhere or build around you. No tax dollars or tax breaks should apply.

I'm sure paying 5 cents for a plastic bag must be annoying.

It's annoying, but I really don't care, if a particular store chooses to charge for bags. I only care when it becomes a state-mandated tax and even then, if it isn't "unConstitutional" all I can do is try to remove it and the statist representatives who feel government should meddle in every facet of our lives.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Obviously things are -way- different in Alaska....

They are different. For one thing, Alaska is the only state that does not collect state sales tax or levy an individual income tax. To finance state government operations, Alaska depends primarily on petroleum revenues. Nonetheless ...


While Alaska does not charge a state sales tax, 89 municipalities collect a local sales tax, with a range of between 1 percent and 7 percent. Typical sales tax rates are 3 to 5 percent. Alaska's taxing jurisdiction directory provides contact information.


Other types of local taxes levied include raw fish taxes, hotel and motel "bed" taxes, severance taxes, liquor and tobacco taxes, gaming (pull tabs) taxes, tire taxes and fuel transfer taxes.


.

 

[carebear]

These two statements are rather incompatible in my opinion....Scrimp, save, struggle...your dreams may not come true or even -close- to it......but life dictates that the crud you get dealt in life...is just part of it....so erm suck it up and make your way up the scale.

You do realise that there are people scrimping and saving -just to eat and have any sort of shelter- owning is so far beyond the vast masses of people.....although I suspect you would just tell them it was their poor planning, or poor education and they should just figure something out.

Obviously things are -way- different in Alaska....

Nope, about the same here as anywhere, though we do have a tradition of "rugged individualism" (slightly discredited due to massive Federal investment beyond what is truly economically defensible).

And yes, that's reality, you can work hard, and lead a good life and still have a tree fall on you tomorrow and it will not be the fault of any other individual. All anyone can do is prepare to the best of their ability.

I do care about folks who can't catch a break, especially if they are working their butts off, I do contribute to a variety of organizations that seek to assuage those needs and get people on their feet and moving as best they are able.

What I cannot abide is "the state" using coercion (all taxes are ultimately rooted in coercion) to force me to help those people involuntarily.

In my mind, and in descending order, the individual is morally responsible for themself, and their family, and their voluntary associations (friends). Beyond that they can choose who else (associates/strangers/ a particular group) they want to assist; but it must be voluntary.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

In my mind, and in descending order, the individual is morally responsible for themself, and their family, and their voluntary associations (friends). Beyond that they can choose who else (associates/strangers/ a particular group) they want to assist; but it must be voluntary.

This is interesting. I know very little about Libertarianism, so I appreciate the information you're giving. Based on the quote above, can I conclude that Libertarians are against a military draft?

.

 

[carebear]

They are different. For one thing, Alaska is the only state that does not collect state sales tax or levy an individual income tax. To finance state government operations, Alaska depends primarily on petroleum revenues. Nonetheless ...


While Alaska does not charge a state sales tax, 89 municipalities collect a local sales tax, with a range of between 1 percent and 7 percent. Typical sales tax rates are 3 to 5 percent. Alaska's taxing jurisdiction directory provides contact information.


Other types of local taxes levied include raw fish taxes, hotel and motel "bed" taxes, severance taxes, liquor and tobacco taxes, gaming (pull tabs) taxes, tire taxes and fuel transfer taxes.


.

We also have property taxes in those areas with a tax base. I own a tri-plex, bought it in 2000 with my VA loan. Anchorage property taxes are exploding due to land values skyrocketing (bought for $189K, now valued at $422K). I've been eating the increases rather than raise rents (I voted for the school bonds same as my renters did, not their fault assessments went up as well) but I'm too far in the red now. I'm trying to figure out the minimum to break even on the tax and utility increases.

Most of the Bush communities don't really have a cash economy, except maybe seasonally, so there's no practical way to gather local taxes to support community costs. The state pays much of them through revenue sharing. The successful Native Corporations (we don't have tribes and reservations) pay out cash dividends to their members as well.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Thanks for telling us about this. It adds shades of meaning to something that is usually portrayed as black & white. (A la "Alaskans don't pay taxes.")

We also have property taxes in those areas with a tax base. I own a tri-plex, bought it in 2000 with my VA loan. Anchorage property taxes are exploding due to land values skyrocketing (bought for $189K, now valued at $422K). I've been eating the increases rather than raise rents (I voted for the school bonds same as my renters did, not their fault assessments went up as well) but I'm too far in the red now. I'm trying to figure out the minimum to break even on the tax and utility increases.

Most of the Bush communities don't really have a cash economy, except maybe seasonally, so there's no practical way to gather local taxes to support community costs. The state pays much of them through revenue sharing. The successful Native Corporations (we don't have tribes and reservations) pay out cash dividends to their members as well.

 

[MrBern]

nickel & diming the ecology

It's annoying, but I really don't care, if a particular store chooses to charge for bags. I only care when it becomes a state-mandated tax and even then, if it isn't "unConstitutional" all I can do is try to remove it and the statist representatives who feel government should meddle in every facet of our lives.

ok, well thats the meat of the matter...Ikea charging a fee for a plastic bag. Not the govt.
They assert that the intention is nobly for ecology's sake.
Will it make a difference?
Will Americans bitch or pitch in?

 

[carebear]

This is interesting. I know very little about Libertarianism, so I appreciate the information you're giving. Based on the quote above, can I conclude that Libertarians are against a military draft?

.

Heck, some capital "L" libertarians are against a voluntary army. (wiki anarcho-libertarian)

Libertarianism (big or small "l") in a nutshell is the "non-aggression principle". All associations should be by voluntary consent, not coercion. Private property is absolute, which includes the right to own yourself without outside interference. Which is where libertarians really move away from modern conservatism and liberalism as defined by the two parties.

Obviously the next question is one of "consent". A person is generally judged able to consent (an adult) when they have both declared themselves independent of other's support and are capable of supporting themselves without aid.

Drugs are private (they can only injure your own body), injuring someone while on or off drugs is aggression. This includes neglecting or abusing your children or dependents due to your drug use or poisoning your neighbors by building a meth lab in a populated area.

Sex is private, including prostitution (it's a voluntary economic association), forcing sex on someone is aggression.

Ownership of things is private, from cars to chainsaws, again, until you injure someone else (or put them at real risk, like driving blindfolded) you can do what you like.

Small "l" libertarians like me are absolutists on the restrictions on government enumerated in the Constitutions of the US and the States. In general, if it doesn't actively say a government can do something, then it cannot, that power is reserved to the people. Remember, the Constitution and BOR does not grant rights, rights granted can be taken away, it merely lists them to make clear they aren't to be meddled with by the Federal government, in the case of the US Constitution, and then to the states by the 14th amendment.

So, in cases of controversy, things need to stay at the lowest applicable political level, not be decided by the Fed who has very few enumerated powers. At the state (and county/town if applicable) level folks have the best chance to directly act to change the rules they voluntarily live under. If they can't change them at the lower level among such a smaller group of people they then can go to a state/county that more directly matches their belief and attempt to affect change there if still necessary.

Our country was designed to have a patchwork of laws (while respecting the great natural rights) so we could all find a place to fit in.

 

[carebear]

ok, well thats the meat of the matter...Ikea charging a fee for a plastic bag. Not the govt.
They assert that the intention is nobly for ecology's sake.
Will it make a difference?
Will Americans bitch or pitch in?

Yeah, I jumped on the tax issue when it wasn't in play yet. My apologies.

Personally, I'd rather go back to paper, we have beaucoup wood pulp and recycled paper nowadays (paperless society where art thou? ) and we have as many trees now as we did 100 years ago. We can preserve the old growth (if we all agree to) and lots of wildlife habitat and still have plenty of lumber and wood pulp to work with.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Heck, some capital "L" libertarians are against a voluntary army. (wiki anarcho-libertarian)

Libertarianism (big or small "l") in a nutshell is the "non-aggression principle". ...

Thanks again, Carebear! I'll look more into Libertarianism. In theory, it sounds very reasonable. My only concern is whether it would work in practice. Human beings seem a pretty unreasonable species.

.

 

[Feraud]

Human beings seem a pretty unreasonable species.

.

Ain't that the truth.

 

[MrBern]

Yeah, I jumped on the tax issue when it wasn't in play yet. My apologies.

Personally, I'd rather go back to paper, we have beaucoup wood pulp and recycled paper nowadays (paperless society where art thou? ) and we have as many trees now as we did 100 years ago. We can preserve the old growth (if we all agree to) and lots of wildlife habitat and still have plenty of lumber and wood pulp to work with.

or better yet, use Hemp products.

 

[carebear]

Thanks again, Carebear! I'll look more into Libertarianism. In theory, it sounds very reasonable. My only concern is whether it would work in practice. Human beings seem a pretty unreasonable species.

.

Libertarianism relies on two human traits: That we generally want to be left alone to live our lives and that in general we will do what is in our own best interest.

Beyond that you are free to help others to your heart's content, as an individual or group, provided you do so voluntarily and without interfering with the rights of others.

The part of the human critter that wants to meddle, violently or politically, in the affairs of others is restricted by the "non-aggression principle". Violations of criminal law are adjudicated under the criminal code, violations of private contracts are either mediated by mutual consent or adjudicated under the civil code.

It's far more "rational" than expecting folks to be happy about giving away the fruits of their labor by coercion for some majority-decided "greater good" they may disagree with entirely, that in fact may not directly impinge on their own lives at all.

It does however require folks to realize that the ultimate right is the right to sit down and starve. Individuals or groups may help you, but no government has the power to force them. Thus, only the truly needy (those actually physically or mentally incapable of providing for themselves in some way) are likely to be helped, all others will be expected to shift for themselves. A lot of folks currently on the dole would be in for a big surprise.

It also means you accept a certain amount of risk in daily life, knowing that the only safety net is the one you provide for yourself or through voluntary associations, like the old guild systems and lodges. It will also make it rational to be on good terms with your extended family.

 

[MrBern]

Hmmm...sounds like hippies.

 

[carebear]

or better yet, use Hemp products.

Exactly.

I don't know if it is a "miracle product" but it was meddling moralists and threatened corporate interests who led the charge against hemp both as a drug and as competition.

They were able to use the power of the state to ban and tax a product out of existence. Which couldn't happen under a libertarian government, as use of maryjane is a private matter and the gov. shouldn't be interfering in the free market for industrial products.

That sort of thing is why the "individual rights" folks of both parties need to cut loose from the nanny-law, do-gooding statists of the left and right and just let people be free.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

It will also make it rational to be on good terms with your extended family.

lol :cheers1:

.

 

[carebear]

Hmmm...sounds like hippies.

Classical liberals more like. But yeah, as long as you don't tax me to help that other guy against my wishes, or tell me not to do something that doesn't hurt you directly, do what you want in your own house.

...just stay off my lawn.

 

[Feng_Li]

When I lived in Germany I had no difficulty adjusting to the "bring your own bag" system. I had a cotton sack that I always carried in my satchel, and it took up almost no space. Just as easy to leave a couple in the trunk of your car all the time.

 

[MrBern]

Maybe i should change the original question from, Should Ikea charge a nickel for a bag, to
Are Americans too spoiled to bring their own bag?
or
Are Americans too spoiled by convenience to stop creating needless trash?