Ribbon source

[Wolfmanjack]

Source for Hat Bands?

Using my newly acquired vintage hat block and brim mold...and using all I've learned from my colleagues on the Fedora Lounge, I've undertaken my first do-it-yourself re-blocking project.

I started with this Beaver brand XXXXX beaver western hat with a cattleman bash.

First, I re-blocked it into an open crown, 6 inches high. Then, I trimmed the brim to 2-1/2 inches. Next, I put a nice curve in the brim with the brim mold. Finally, I gave it a C-crown bash with a pinch front.

I was after a Sam Spade style fedora shape, and I think I've come quite close. I was amazed at how the felt was so pliant and easy to work with. Very forgiving of my mistakes.

Now I want to replace the present band with a period-correct grosgrain ribbon band. This is where I need a little help from my Fedora Lounge friends: Can Anyone suggest a source for traditional ribbon hat bands? Ideally, I'd like to get one with a ready-made bow; but I'd be willing to attempt making a bow, if necessary.

I'd also be grateful for any help anyone can offer on techniques for attaching the ribbon. I'm hoping to avoid the major surgery involved in removing the lining.

I'll post pics when I'm finished.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Can Anyone suggest a source for traditional ribbon hat bands?

Folks, this is the sort of topic that begs for a sticky thread, or (even better) a "hat sources" section in the FAQ.

How many times has Wolfman Jack's excellent question been asked, answered, and then buried under a mountain of subsequent threads? Sure, one could attempt a past threads search, but we've all found out that multi-word searches aren't easy to do around here.

What say you, bartenders? Could you add some hat source info to the FAQ?


.

 

[SHARPETOYS]

Call Star Binding Co. ask for Stuart...


http://www.starbinding.com/products_bows.htm

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Now that's the kind of post that should be placed in a permanent reference section here.

.

 

[GentlemanFarmer]

Millenery shops

You can also look under "Millnery " in the Yellow pages or Google. Women's hat shops that do wedding veils, etc. can help or even make up one for you.

 

[Joel Tunnah]

You can find grosgrain ribbon in many places on the web - but unfortunately, 99% of it seems to be polyester. You have to make sure what you're getting is the rayon/cotton blend used in the old days.

There are eBay auctions for vintage ribbon, which is the best way to go, IMO.

Joel

 

[Wolfmanjack]

Thank you all for your helpful suggestions.

Folks, this is the sort of topic that begs for a sticky thread, or (even better) a "hat sources" section in the FAQ.

I agree with Marc; a "hat sources" section would be very helpful for newbie do-it-yourselfers like me.

I did some searching in this forum and found the thread Should a hat band always be darker than the hat?. This led me to have second thoughts about buying grosgrain ribbon on the web. it was Andykev's posting that convinced me that the selection of a ribbon color to coordinate with a felt color is a very subtle choice indeed. I want to be able to actually place the ribbon on the hat in daylight to make my decision. This means I'll have to wait until my next trip south from the Northwoods to shop for ribbon.

Meanwhile, my searching in this forum also led to an excellent tutorial on ribbon band attachment. Go to the thread Replacement hat band?, page 2 and scroll down to the posting by Fortino37. A very thorough explanation.

Perhaps these postings would be useful additions to the "hat sources" section Marc Chevalier has suggested.

Regards to all,

 

[Magus]

Thank you all for your helpful suggestions.


I agree with Marc; a "hat sources" section would be very helpful for newbie do-it-yourselfers like me.

I did some searching in this forum and found the thread Should a hat band always be darker than the hat?. This led me to have second thoughts about buying grosgrain ribbon on the web. it was Andykev's posting that convinced me that the selection of a ribbon color to coordinate with a felt color is a very subtle choice indeed. I want to be able to actually place the ribbon on the hat in daylight to make my decision. This means I'll have to wait until my next trip south from the Northwoods to shop for ribbon.

Meanwhile, my searching in this forum also led to an excellent tutorial on ribbon band attachment. Go to the thread Replacement hat band?, page 2 and scroll down to the posting by Fortino37. A very thorough explanation.

Perhaps these postings would be useful additions to the "hat sources" section Marc Chevalier has suggested.

Regards to all,

I am working on a leather band design....if you are interested.

Enjoy!

M

 

[Wolfmanjack]

I am working on a leather band design....if you are interested.

Enjoy!

M

Thanks for the offer, Magus. For this particular hat, I want to go with a traditional grosgrain ribbon band.

 

[Spatterdash]

Problem with Hat Ribbon Sources

I have noticed something really troubling for those of us who like to refurbish hats or experiment with making them. There is no decent ribbon source.

Yeah, I know vintage ribbon is better. I got my hands on some 2 1/4 inch black grosgrain from the forties, nice stuff.

But these days, we have an odd problem. A lot of cotton/rayon grosgrain has a sawtooth edge to it, little bumps along the ribbons edges that make it look rough and ragged visually.
The ribbons so often recommended here from places like judithm.com, hats by leko,(www.hatsupply.com) all have this sawtooth edge. I have ordered from both of these suppliers, and I got sawtoothed ribbon.
Go here to see an example of what I mean-

http://www.hymanhendler.com/grosgrain-beauvais-new01a.htm

As you can see, the above is cotton/rayon, the real deal, but it has this horrid edge, like little round teeth.

I have only found a few suppliers of smooth edge cotton/rayon grosgrain, and they want you to buy 20 yard rolls at a minimum. Here's an example...

http://www.jkmribbon.com/grosrc.html

And if you want the sort width we like a lot, say 1 1/2 inches? 50 yards minimum.

So I guess my question is, do you guys have any suppliers that provide smooth edged cotton/rayon grosgrain ribbon by the yard?

 

[ScottF]

Good luck on this subject - since all new hats have ribbons that at least LOOK like vintage ribbon, they must be getting it somewhere; however, the only sources mentioned here that have any selection, are the petersham suppliers, and that stuff just doesn't look right on a man's hat. I have a decent supply of assorted ribbon purchased from two suppliers, that I keep meaning to finish a few hats with. I'll test it out in the next few weeks, post results, and let you know what's left over.

Same for sweatbands - only one supplier and they really produce an inferior product. I have six of them that I ordered new - two with the coating chipped off along the top, all sewn poorly. A better option in my opinion, is to buy cheap ugly hats at thrift stores, and swipe the sweatbands.

As far as the reed strips for sewing your own leather to - no responses here to my source request on this forum. Possible that it's not available in small supply. I have leather ready, just in case.

Good luck

Scott <=== not a hatmaker

I have noticed something really troubling for those of us who like to refurbish hats or experiment with making them. There is no decent ribbon source.

Yeah, I know vintage ribbon is better. I got my hands on some 2 1/4 inch black grosgrain from the forties, nice stuff.

But these days, we have an odd problem. A lot of cotton/rayon grosgrain has a sawtooth edge to it, little bumps along the ribbons edges that make it look rough and ragged visually.
The ribbons so often recommended here from places like judithm.com, hats by leko,(www.hatsupply.com) all have this sawtooth edge. I have ordered from both of these suppliers, and I got sawtoothed ribbon.
Go here to see an example of what I mean-

http://www.hymanhendler.com/grosgrain-beauvais-new01a.htm

As you can see, the above is cotton/rayon, the real deal, but it has this horrid edge, like little round teeth.

I have only found a few suppliers of smooth edge cooton/rayon grosgrain, and they want you to buy 20 yard rolls at a minimum. Here's an example...

http://www.jkmribbon.com/grosrc.html

And if you want the sort width we like a lot, say 1 1/2 inches? 50 yards minimum.

So I guess my question is, do you guys have any suppliers that provide smooth edged cotton/rayon grosgrain ribbon by the yard?

 

[Spatterdash]

ScottF-

The sweatbands, you mention one source. I know hatsupply.com has them, but I think most of the guys here (myself included) get the goatskin sweatbands from JW Hats in Utah.
He cuts them and assembles them himself, and they come with reeds.

JW Hats - 801-977-0676

 

[Art Fawcett]

Spatterdash, you are coming up against the same problem all of us have had and really, can't be solved to my knowledge. I have no single source to give you for ribbon and when it IS found, forget getting it by the yard. On behalf of the ribbon people it's an incredible pain in the rear to sell by the yard considering photographs that have to be taken, the inevitable " is the color true on my monitor" questions for a $3 purchase. That's why hatters spend so much time for sourcing and investing in ribbon when it can be had and hoard it for the future. I don't see it getting any better.

 

[Brad Bowers]

Yes, the one source that I've found only carries hatband in black and white. If you want any other color, you have to order a special dye run, something like 3000 yards of it, as I remember. Figuring and average of a yard of hatband per hat, that's 3000 hats! Out of my reach for now.

If I had the money to invest and sit around in inventory, I'd love to order blank sweats and liners and ribbon in various widths, and sell it on a per-piece basis to do-it-yourselfers. But alas, I don't.

Brad

 

[Spatterdash]

Disappointing, but educational. Art, good to see ya, and Brad, I appreciate it.

I guess the part-time hobby hat maker will have to invest in a roll or two of classic colors, say black, tan, gray, that sort of thing. In the meantime, if I do find suppliers other than hatmakers who are willing to part with a yard or two of smooth-edge ribbon on occasion, I'll let this forum know it.

 

[tonyb]

Yeah, it can be a challenge for the hobbyist to source the small amounts of materials and equipment he might actually put to good use, for the reasons Art and Brad have already enumerated.

The good news is that there are some eBay sellers who specialize in vintage fabrics and such who really do know their stuff. I know of a couple of them who make it clear in their descriptions whether the particular ribbon has a "bound" (sometimes it's called "finished") edge or if it's that stuff you don't want, the stuff with the scalloped edge -- French belting or Petersham or whatever it's called. These sellers will often mention the fiber content in the description, or their best guess as to what it might be (some will even report the result of the burn test). They make their money by buying by the large lot and selling by the each (or the yard, in this case), so you're exactly the person they're looking for. I check 'em out every now and then to see if they've turned up anything unusual (hard-to-find colors, etc.) that I might want in my repertoire.

The downsides are that their selection is usually quite limited (and quite understandably so) and that the price per yard is a whole lot higher than a hat shop would typically pay (again, it's quite understandable why that is). Still, you can get decent ribbon and be out only a few bucks for enough to do a hat or two. For the hobbyist, that's a pretty good deal.

 

[ScottF]

On behalf of the ribbon people it's an incredible pain in the rear to sell by the yard considering photographs that have to be taken, the inevitable " is the color true on my monitor" questions for a $3 purchase. That's why hatters spend so much time for sourcing and investing in ribbon when it can be had and hoard it for the future. I don't see it getting any better.

Boy, that's the truth - that's also why I personally have a pretty good selection of ribbon colors - I bought based on the color on the screen, then had to purchase more stuff because the color wasn't true. Then even more when I realized I had bough the dreaded petersham. Now I have way too much ribbon, and almost none of it is quite right.

Spatterdash - thank you SO MUCH for JW Hats number for sweatbands! I have Brad's stitch awl tutorial by my side, along with my sweatbands, and I really hated to waste so much energy finishing a hat with these. I would much prefer to toss them out and get some good ones.

Thanks again!

 

[Vintage Betty]

Spatterdash, you are coming up against the same problem all of us have had and really, can't be solved to my knowledge. I have no single source to give you for ribbon and when it IS found, forget getting it by the yard. On behalf of the ribbon people it's an incredible pain in the rear to sell by the yard considering photographs that have to be taken, the inevitable " is the color true on my monitor" questions for a $3 purchase. That's why hatters spend so much time for sourcing and investing in ribbon when it can be had and hoard it for the future. I don't see it getting any better.

Art, being the expert who posted what I want to say, I can only support this statement. I've been collecting vintage ribbon for 20+ years, and have at least a couple hundred rolls, everything from tri-colored hand-dyed silk to petersham to German embroidered. Obviously, many of these were not intended for men's hats.

However, I would like to join the chorus of persons who have posted so far regarding the amazing uprise in price of vintage ribbon. I've looked at vintage ribbon now adorning walls of craft shops and cannot BELIEVE the price per yard they are charging ($45/yard for embroidered Victorian ribbon? $390/bolt? Are you kidding me?). I almost never buy per yard.

I am definately hoarding and really have no intention of selling any of my ribbon, as the price over the last two years alone has shot through the roof.

Since I'd like to do millinery in the future, I figure I'm saving money in the end. In fact, I am currently changing my storage solutions for my vintage ribbon to assume they will be stored for many years and want them to last a long time.

I've already assumed that "one day" I will have a studio with a wall of vintage ribbon and have been looking at how to display the ribbon. (Top choice so far: Copper gutters with end caps, idea courtesy of Martha Stewart) Realistically? I already have wire-coated display units from a scrapbook store that went out of business stored at my friends business and will hold my ribbon when I get a studio built.

It's really important that you learn the kind of ribbon you want, so if you WANT the "bound edge" and DON'T WANT the "sawtooth edge" you communicate that to the seller before purchase.

I don't really understand why vintage ribbon has gone through this HUGE price increase over the last couple years. The only reason I can think of is Scrapbooking. Art, any ideas?

 

[Spatterdash]

Betty, Art, ...

Is it possible that hats (and historic clothing in general) have enjoyed a slight revival thanks to online communities like this one, but ribbon suppliers have not met the need, so the vintage ribbon folk put a bone-crushing grip on the market?

 

[majormoore]

Myself and several other hatters are trying to buy some new ribbon that meets the demand that we want and also in the colors we need. Ready for this!!!! No problem, we just have to order 20,000 yards of one color, widths have to be in 5000 yard each per width,This is a major expense for hatters, and to be honest very hard. Figure 1 yard per hat ribbon and bow, and one hatter will have 20,000 hats in one color ribbon, if he does half of them with a bound edge then he only has 10,000 hats in that one color.

It's almost like the ribbon makers really don't want to keep the small hat makers supplied with ribbon, but we are a close knit group and maybe we might find a way to get the ribbon we need for the hat bodies we buy that looks like the ribbon we all want it to look and feel like.

Major Moore