Regular CXL HH Vs CXL FQHH

[Sabir Asaria]

I have always wondered about what is the difference between regular CXL HH and Front Quarter CXL HH.

As per Aero, Chromexcel Heavy Front Quarter Horsehide is available exclusively from them and no other jacket manufacturer. I have seen other manufacturers (Simmons Bilt & Johnson Leather to name a couple) offer CXL jackets but none other than Aero offer CXL FQHH

The labels on Aero’s FQHH jackets even mention Front Quarter specifically whereas for other horsehides they use (like Jerky HH) the label simply mentions HH.

So what’s the difference between regular HH and FQHH and what makes FQHH so special?

 

[Carlos840]

Regular horse hide comes from the entire horse, FQHH comes from the front quarter of the hides.

According to Master Ken:

"The only section of a Horse hide that's suitable for clothing is the Front Quarter although the belly area is often retaiuned these days it's usually too stretchy.
The mane area is sometimes left attached but that's a more modern tweek, now called Double Quarter where both front quarters are tanned in one piece
Front Quarter Horsehide has become the default term for heavy horse skins, that's probably Aero's fault as between the early 1960s and the early 1990s nobody else on the planet was interested in making jackets from Horse Leather. We pushed the term FQHH
Type A-2s back in the day were made from thinner front quarters than Aero/Horween FQHH
Tea Core is another new term coined in Japan for what Aero have been doing this since the early 1990s, we called it Jerky Horse because the hides were chosen for their mixed grain, like Jerky meat, the base was dyed a russet coilour and the top coat was Seal Brown or Black....................OK the "Core" looked like "Tea" but pass me a Thesarus before more shpiel is needed by the marketing dept"

Personally i call BS on the idea that only FQHH is suitable for clothing and that it is the thickest part of the hide, LW for example buys their skins whole and they get much thicker leather than you get from FQHH. The horse butt and the draw are thicker than the front quarters and just as good to make jackets from.

I think what makes FQHH special is mostly marketing talk...

 

[Monitor]

Yeah, I think they all use most of the animals skin and the abbreviations are mostly marketing ploy. Well, except for Fine Creek, as they (used to?) deliberately work with the belly area parts that had pronounced stretch marks.

Virtually all vintage horsehide jackets have tags explicitly stating "Front Quarter Horsehide".

Leather jackets have been around a looong time and it is safe to say that they've reached developmental zenith so I'm pretty sure every existing leather jacket maker under the sun, builds jackets using the exact same parts of the animal skin.

Oh, and leather thickness depends entirely on skiving (thinning the hide). Shouldn't matter much which part of the beast it comes from.

 

[Marc mndt]

Tea Core is another new term coined in Japan for what Aero have been doing this since the early 1990s, we called it Jerky Horse because the hides were chosen for their mixed grain, like Jerky meat, the base was dyed a russet coilour and the top coat was Seal Brown or Black....................OK the "Core" looked like "Tea" but pass me a Thesarus before more shpiel is needed by the marketing dept"

Ken seems to suggest that 'teacore' was invented by Aero in the early 90s. Which is bs of course because if teacore means a russet base with a black topcoat, teacore jackets have been around since the 30s or 40s.

 

[Carlos840]

Ken seems to suggest that 'teacore' was invented by Aero in the early 90s. Which is bs of course because if teacore means a russet base with a black topcoat, teacore jackets have been around since the 30s or 40s.

How dare you imply Master Ken is wrong about anything?
If he says it, it is true.
He invented teacore, and he invented the FQHH tag!

 

[Marc mndt]

How dare you imply Master Ken is wrong about anything?
If he says it, it is true.
He invented teacore, and he invented the FQHH tag!

He invented horses too LOL

 

[Sabir Asaria]

Yeah, I think they all use most of the animals skin and the abbreviations are mostly marketing ploy. Well, except for Fine Creek, as they (used to?) deliberately work with the belly area parts that had pronounced stretch marks.

Virtually all vintage horsehide jackets have tags explicitly stating "Front Quarter Horsehide".

Leather jackets have been around a looong time and it is safe to say that they've reached developmental zenith so I'm pretty sure every existing leather jacket maker under the sun, builds jackets using the exact same parts of the animal skin.

Oh, and leather thickness depends entirely on skiving (thinning the hide). Shouldn't matter much which part of the beast it comes from.

Yes, I’ve noticed those stretch marks on Fine Creek and LW jackets... personally not a fan.

I’m aware that leather thickness depends on skiving. However, I’ve read that the density of fibers does vary considerably depending on the part of the animal the hide comes from. My assumption was that FQHH had denser fibers as compared to regular HH...

 

[Sabir Asaria]

Ken seems to suggest that 'teacore' was invented by Aero in the early 90s. Which is bs of course because if teacore means a russet base with a black topcoat, teacore jackets have been around since the 30s or 40s.

IMHO you’re reading too much into what Carlos quoted regarding what Ken had to say.

I read it as the term ‘Teacore’ was coined in Japan but Aero was reproducing that effect since the 90’s... makes no claims about inventing it...

 

[Harris HTM]

IMHO you’re reading too much into what Carlos quoted regarding what Ken had to say.

I read it as the term ‘Teacore’ was coined in Japan but Aero was reproducing that effect since the 90’s... makes no claims about inventing it...

Neither that he invented the FQHH tag too.

 

[TREEMAN]

Seems to me that there are more horses asses in the world than there are horses….

 

[Mich486]

My understanding is that density of HH is (in decreasing order):

Shell > Horse butt > Front > rest.

I’m pretty sure the shell is only used for shoes or accessories and I thought horse butt too is too stiff for jackets but I might be wrong.

 

[Monitor]

However, I’ve read that the density of fibers does vary considerably depending on the part of the animal the hide comes from. My assumption was that FQHH had denser fibers as compared to regular HH...

You're correct about that but to be honest, I hardly believe extra fiber density ever applies to any real life situation where it would make a difference. I guess additional stiffness would come in handy when it comes to boots but even that is achieved primarily through chemistry, rather than the actual animal part.

As for Aero, I agree; I'm not reading it in a way that they claim to have invented the tea-core leather at all. They simply stated they've began using the leather exhibiting this particular characterization very early on which is to some extent true. While several other primarily designer companies working in a similar leather that could be termed tea-cure existed during the initial early 90's revival of classic Americana, Aero indeed was among the first to produce jackets outta this kinda hide on a, well, mass scale (as in not just a few pieces in each size).

RMC, Shinki, etc. happened two decades later.

There's some antagonism rising toward Aero as of late and while I agree their patterns do leave a lot to be desired when it comes to comfort, the fact remains that they just may be responsible for the fact that this scene at all exists.
One man's vision & dedication to stick to constructing a high-quality, sturdy, tough leather garments in a world of mass produced, imported junk, is infinitely commendable, especially since they too could've taken the easy way and just go the way of anyone else. Sticking with that vision is what I am 100% convinced, inspired many other makers to follow this path.

For instance, I'd bet all my money on the fact that Aero is literally the only reason why Schott, that was rollin' fast down the trash highway toward the junktown, made a 180 turn and started producing pieces that at this point have every right to be considered high-end.

 

[Hide'n'seek]

With regards to Aero's leathers the term "Front Quarter" has become assosiated mainly with our Chromexcel, with people refering to Chromxcel Horse simply as Front Quarter. Even here at the factory many of the team refer to it as Front Quarter. All Horseide used for our jackets is actually Front Quarter ( Vicenza , Jerky , Battered etc...) , Front Quarter is the only part suitable for Jackets. The Shell is too dense, and also far too expensive, the butts too thick and the belly too soft and stretchy.

When we approached Horween 30 plus years ago they had stacks and stacks of Front quarters that they almost refered to as remenants after removing the expensive "cordovan shells" these shells were / are used in some of the most expensive shoes, wallets, and other leather accesories. Nobody at the time was interersted in making jackets from these "left over" Front quarters, even Horween at the time thought is strange we wanted to make jackets from it.
Nobody is suggesting that Aero created the term "Front Quarter" or that we were the first to use in on a jacket label, look back at any vintage horsehide jacket from the 30's, 40's or 50's and most of then carried "Front Quarter" on ther labels. When we started using it no one at the time was using it, so the term became assosiated with us and Chromexcel horse. Simlar in the way that the term Cordovan has became assosiated with a colour. Our Cordovan Chromexcel colour is actually called Colour #8 by Horween , but used the term Cordovan instead and it stuck.

We are also not claiming to have "invented" Teacore @Marc mndt @Carlos840 , of course not. Again most vintage jackets were chrome tanned with a pigmnet topcoat on a natural colour crust, over time the topcoat colour wears through exposing the lighter colour crust, just as your picture @Marc mndt . Chromexcel already has this property due to it's tanning process, a natural colour crust with dye applied to surface ( not drum dyed) .
With our Jerky we went a step further by having the crusts dyed first in a lovely russet colour before the black (or seal) topcoat is applied , this gives a wamer brown tone to develop than what you see on some vintage jackets where the crust is quite light. More recently we have done the same with our Blackend Brown Vicenza where we have it firstly dyed seal and then topcoated in brown.
We don't refer to any of the above as "teacore" , that term has found it's way through from Japan.

So to clarify we haven't "invented" any of the above but due to Aero being one of the first companies reintroduce a long forgoten leather, and start recreating vintage jackets from the 40's and 50's certain terms have become assoisiated with us.

 

[El Marro]

Here is an explanation from the folks who actually make the CXL that we are talking about:

https://www.horween.com/blog/2010/12/14/by-request-whats-the-difference

From reading this it seems that almost all horsehide jackets are made from the front quarters so I would not believe anyone who said that they are the only ones who have access to this part of the horse.

 

[Hide'n'seek]

Here is an explanation from the folks who actually make the CXL that we are talking about:
https://www.horween.com/blog/2010/12/14/by-request-whats-the-difference

From reading this it seems that almost all horsehide jackets are made from the front quarters so I would not believe anyone who said that they are the only ones who have access to this part of the horse.

Exactly what I'm saying above, all horsehide jackets are "front quarter"

 

[jonesy86]

With regards to Aero's leathers the term "Front Quarter" has become assosiated mainly with our Chromexcel, with people refering to Chromxcel Horse simply as Front Quarter. Even here at the factory many of the team refer to it as Front Quarter. All Horseide used for our jackets is actually Front Quarter ( Vicenza , Jerky , Battered etc...) , Front Quarter is the only part suitable for Jackets. The Shell is too dense, and also far too expensive, the butts too thick and the belly too soft and stretchy.

When we approached Horween 30 plus years ago they had stacks and stacks of Front quarters that they almost refered to as remenants after removing the expensive "cordovan shells" these shells were / are used in some of the most expensive shoes, wallets, and other leather accesories. Nobody at the time was interersted in making jackets from these "left over" Front quarters, even Horween at the time thought is strange we wanted to make jackets from it.
Nobody is suggesting that Aero created the term "Front Quarter" or that we were the first to use in on a jacket label, look back at any vintage horsehide jacket from the 30's, 40's or 50's and most of then carried "Front Quarter" on ther labels. When we started using it no one at the time was using it, so the term became assosiated with us and Chromexcel horse. Simlar in the way that the term Cordovan has became assosiated with a colour. Our Cordovan Chromexcel colour is actually called Colour #8 by Horween , but used the term Cordovan instead and it stuck.

We are also not claiming to have "invented" Teacore @Marc mndt @Carlos840 , of course not. Again most vintage jackets were chrome tanned with a pigmnet topcoat on a natural colour crust, over time the topcoat colour wears through exposing the lighter colour crust, just as your picture @Marc mndt . Chromexcel already has this property due to it's tanning process, a natural colour crust with dye applied to surface ( not drum dyed) .
With our Jerky we went a step further by having the crusts dyed first in a lovely russet colour before the black (or seal) topcoat is applied , this gives a wamer brown tone to develop than what you see on some vintage jackets where the crust is quite light. More recently we have done the same with our Blackend Brown Vicenza where we have it firstly dyed seal and then topcoated in brown.
We don't refer to any of the above as "teacore" , that term has found it's way through from Japan.

So to clarify we haven't "invented" any of the above but due to Aero being one of the first companies reintroduce a long forgoten leather, and start recreating vintage jackets from the 40's and 50's certain terms have become assoisiated with us.

Great info, thanks for contributing to the forum.

 

[Canuck Panda]

@Carlos840 I have long suspected my LW jacket was made with some horse butt strips. Because it was thicker than most and had a distinctive ripple grain like this horse butt strip:

One of my crazy ideas was to make an entire jacket out of shell cordovan on my exit. Still to be explored. @red devil East West Electric Studio maybe?

But for now. The thickest Horse Fronts I could source (regardless of tannery) maxed out at 4.5 oz. While Horse butt strips can easily be found in 5 or 6 oz thickness.

Damon @ Johnson Leather did not say no to my crazy idea and will make me a jacket from 3.5oz CXL FQHH with 5.5oz CXL Butt strips . Will post photos of it when it's done.

This is my understanding of the horse leather:

I honestly don't think horsehide is better for garment than say steerhide or other hides. It's just what's available, then and now. If the leather is thick enough it will give me the protection I want. And if its thin enough it will give me the comfort I seek. Thick and soft is where I am at. Although there is still the weight issue. Carrying an extra 7 lbs everyday is still carrying an extra 7 lbs everyday, regardless how comfortable the pattern is.

Edit: Horsehide and other animal hides at the same thickness, horse tend to weigh a bit more, by about a pound in the same jacket.

And to answer OP's question at the top:
@Sabir Asaria Aero will give you the best bang for your buck when it comes to CXL FQHH jackets (especially on their sale page). They got the market cornered on the CXL FQHH for now.

More Edit: @Sabir Asaria SB does not offer CXL HH or FQHH, only CXL Steerhides. I think this may be an exclusive contract between Horween and Aero. Although SB's Milan HH is awfully similar. We all have to make a living right. Johnson can get CXL FQHH, but it's extra cost.

 

[Harris HTM]

I have long suspected my LW jacket was made with some horse butt strips.

According to the Lost Worlds website, they are using FRONT QUARTER hide.

One of my crazy ideas was to make an entire jacket out of shell cordovan on my exit.

The problem with shell cordovan is it’s small size. If you tried to make a jacket out of it then it’d had to be a model with many many panels.

 

[Canuck Panda]

According to the Lost Worlds website, they are using FRONT QUARTER hide.
View attachment 375280


The problem with shell cordovan is it’s small size. If you tried to make a jacket out of it then it’d had to be a model with many many panels.

Look man, I am not trying to say LW is what or Aero is what not. All I am saying is that on my LW J24 jacket bought here in the Classifieds, it has parts that has grain none of my Aero has. It also has parts that are only 2.5oz thin and then parts that are ridiculously thick close to 5oz. While my Aeros has been more consistent in thickness, 3 to 4, it never go past that 4 oz mark. I am not complaining about either one!

I don't really read too much into what manufacturer has to say on their marketing material because they are just marketing material. I get that. I'd like to see touch and feel and make notes for myself. And my notes are just that too. My findings. Your experience may be different from different jackets samples.

I've also tried to buy 6oz horse hides. No. Only butt strips. But they are soft enough for jackets. No different than my soft steerhides. Just not as readily available.

The average size for shell cordovan is about 2 square feet. Average horse fronts starts at 10 for single and up to 25 for double. The only parts I would have problem is in the sleeves, unless it gets cut up in two panels. Hence the East West designs.

I am not pro or against any brands or what they like to say about their products. If the price is ok with me I give it a go and see it for myself.

 

[Carlos840]

Look man, I am not trying to say LW is what or Aero is what not. All I am saying is that on my LW J24 jacket bought here in the Classifieds, it has parts that has grain none of my Aero has. It also has parts that are only 2.5oz thin and then parts that are ridiculously thick close to 5oz. While my Aeros has been more consistent in thickness, 3 to 4, it never go past that 4 oz mark. I am not complaining about either one!

I don't really read too much into what manufacturer has to say on their marketing material because they are just marketing material. I get that. I'd like to see touch and feel and make notes for myself. And my notes are just that too. My findings. Your experience may be different from different jackets samples.

I've also tried to buy 6oz horse hides. No. Only butt strips. But they are soft enough for jackets. No different than my soft steerhides. Just not as readily available.

The average size for shell cordovan is about 2 square feet. Average horse fronts starts at 10 for single and up to 25 for double. The only parts I would have problem is in the sleeves, unless it gets cut up in two panels. Hence the East West designs.

I am not pro or against any brands or what they like to say about their products. If the price is ok with me I give it a go and see it for myself.

Stuart told me their tanned hides are "sides" as pictured here:

If you ask for extra heavy they will use the butt for certain pieces like the back or the upper yoke.
Not every jacket gets butt, but not every jacket is 100% front quarter.