Recreation with a Weak Partner

[Paisley]

I'd like to know what other Loungers think of recreation like dancing, tennis, cards, etc. where your enjoyment depends in part on the skill of your partner--and you have a weak partner. Specifically, a partner who is not a newbie, but has been at it for awhile and hasn't mastered the basics.

On the one hand, having a much weaker partner is more an act of inclusion of the person than recreation. I believe there are etiquette precedents for acquiring a skill before joining in games or dances that require it.

On the other hand, a card game or a dance doesn't last very long and will give some enjoyment to the weak partner. And who knows? He or she might improve. Perhaps this deserves some of your time.

How have others handled this?

 

[benstephens]

I think this is a rather open strange concept. Simone and I dance, Simone is a very good dancer, I am, well, not. However, she loves dancing with me, and she enjoys it as she very much enjoys the time she spends with me, and not so much the 'activity' itself.

On the other hand, I love cycling, Simone is much weaker than I am, but I love it when we have been out cycling together. I do not see it as charity?, or any sort of competition. Just enjoy sharing the activities together.

I just feel, that if anyone was dancing with me and thought it as 'charity' or did not get some enjoyment out of it, I would be mortified they had not said anything, or in fact, even bothered to dance with me!.

Kindest Regards

Ben

 

[dhermann1]

I was the weak partner. My late wife was one of the really elite swing dancers in our group, and I always said that I aspired to mediocrity. I'm a fair dancer, but nothing special. But I was always good enough not to embarrass myself or her when we danced. So we would always have a few dances togeteher, especially those nice slow ballads , and she had a whole gang of really great favorite partners. I always loved watching her dance with some of the greatest swing dancers in the world.
I guess the bottom line is, dancers that "have to dance" will find their own partners. Significant others should just go with the flow.
Getting back to your question, I think it helps if the other person makes some sort of effort to get at least minimally decent, so they can have one or two dances together during the evening (or whatever activity we're talking about).
As far as charity is concerned, I think dancing with someone you care about involves a somewhat different kind of enjoyment than the basic activity itself, so I say focus that aspect of the experience instead.
Cards or sports or such things, on the other hand, do not necessarily provide that kind of romantic enjoyment. So I have no advice there.
Edit: Looks like BenStephens and I said about the same thing simultaneously. Ben maybe a little but more eloquently.

 

[Paisley]

Just to clarify, by "partner," I mean a dance partner or bridge partner or tennis partner. Not your honey or your best friend.

 

[benstephens]

Well, then you have out grown them and it is time to move on, if they are a partner purely for a recreation activity, I would slowly increase my time with another partner.

However, again with cycling, I go out on a Thursday with a group who are a lot older than me from work, but enjoy it a lot for the social aspect, however, I could imagine with tennis etc, if you wanted to improve your game, you need someone who is as good, or preferably better than to be able to up 'your game' and challenge you.

Kindest Regards

Ben

 

[Paisley]

Just to clarify a little more.

I dance with many people, and I'm happy to dance with newbies. What has been on my mind are a few people who've been in the scene for some time, haven't acquired basic skills and, I believe, aren't likely to do so.

I agree that with good friends or significant others, it's different. The social aspect is emphasized.

 

[Miss_Bella_Hell]

How about "hey, I wanna join this game, but you're not good enough. Mind sitting it out?"

Too harsh? lol

 

[Carlisle Blues]

Paisley, there is just no easy way to say it

 

[Paisley]

I was thinking more along the lines of "No thanks." But thank you for your suggestions.

 

[Guttersnipe]

One of the best ways to learn any skill is to practice it with someone who is better than yourself. Likewise, practicing a skill with someone who is less advanced than yourself is a really good way to re-enforce your own fundamentals.

One of the best things I ever did to improve my guitar playing is teach an old girlfriend how to play - sure it could be a little boring at times - but it forced me to focus on chord theory and scales I hadn't paid attention to in years and today, she's better than me....

 

[dhermann1]

One of the most aggravating things in the whole swing dancing scene are guys who think they can dance but can't. It's generally people who haven't mastered the basic step, or have got an exactly wrong idea of it in their heads. I sometimes just take them aside and try politely to show them what to do. Newbies are much more likely to be willing to do this, tho. People who have done it wrong forever are generally irremediable. And they somehow all seem to think they're all Fred Astaire. You know the types. For them, just say no. They'll probably think you're stuck up and say bad stuff about you, but the line sometimes has to be drawn.

 

["Skeet" McD]

I've been playing traditional Irish music again, after a LONG hiatus...there's a session of music that I can walk to, 2.5 miles from where I live. When I first got there, I had no idea who would be there. Sessions are truly democratic affairs: they're not entertainment, but groups of people who enjoy the music and the socializing.

To make a long story short: I was WAAAAAY better than them, and was more than willing to put some time in, as I felt that they probably had never been exposed to the real tradition...so went out of my way to be friendly, offer hints where they seemed to be welcome, and try to move things along by introducing new tunes that would be easy to learn.

Six months later, the truth has surfaced: the fact that they hadn't been exposed to "real" traditional music wasn't the cause...it was the result. The folks who are in this group are happy doing just what they're doing, playing the same sixteen tunes again and again for 3 hours, once a week. And that's just fine: the group is homogenous (except for me, and the odd stray-in); is enjoying what they're doing; and have no real interest in doing anything else.

My take home message: show up now and again to support a local session and to enjoy the company of some people who I've come to like. But, for actually PLAYING traditional music: find another session! Which I have...a few towns over, where I'm the weak link! But the folks there realize that I have something to offer on my own score and am anxious to fit in....So I'm learning as fast as I can, and having a whale of a time. And they've taken me in and enjoy my presence.

Moral: particularly in activities which classify as "enjoyment"...there is no reason to do something unless you are enjoying it; people can do the same thing for vastly different reasons; and the best thing is to find the group that's doing what you want to do for the same reasons you are. Otherwise, everyone will just get on everybody else's nerves, for equally good reasons on both sides. If it ain't what YOU call fun....don't do it (unless there are extenuating circumstances...but, P, you seem to mean friendship or love doesn't enter into the matter).

"Skeet"

 

[KittyT]

One of the best ways to learn any skill is to practice it with someone who is better than yourself. Likewise, practicing a skill with someone who is less advanced than yourself is a really good way to re-enforce your own fundamentals.

This is assuming that they also have some fundamentals in place.

I totally understand that dancing, etc with a stronger partner makes you better, but you have to have a certain level of knowledge and skill (or natural ability) to make those improvements.

I strongly dislike dancing with a weak partner (by weak I mean someone who can't dance in time with the music and doesn't have a basic knowledge of form and the most elementary moves), in part because I hate looking and feeling sloppy, in part because I want to focus on and enjoy the dancing, not spend the dance trying to figure out what my partner is trying to do and wishing he'd stay in tempo. The other part of this is that I like to dance my best, and a good partner helps bring this out in me, which in turn brings me greater enjoyment from the activity. I will dance with someone who has the basics, and I don't mind, but I do like to be challenged, so I find such dances to get boring if they happen too often.

Paisley, I know you meant "partner" not "honey", but i will say that I'm not even that fond of dancing with my fella. He has a some experience with dancing, but I do not enjoy dancing with him because it makes me feel sloppy and awkward.

I say there's nothing wrong with a polite "no thanks" if you don't want to dance with a weaker partner. I would just make sure that you've given them a couple of initial chances first. First time you danced with them, they were bad. The second time, had they shown any improvement? I'm assuming these are folks you're familiar with and you shouldn't feel guilty about having whatever standards you have.

 

[Chas]

I once had a regular dance partner who was nuts, a backstabber and a hard core flake. So firing her was as easy as falling off a log. It was an education.

Try: "I think you're great, but I really need a partner who's really closer to my level at this point. I'm at heart a driven, competitive person and I think that I need to partner up with someone who is a little above my level, which will help me improve my game (dancing, or whatever). I think that if we stayed in this arrangement I would end up getting frustrated and I don't want that to interfere with your enjoyment of dancing (or bridge, or whatever) or our friendship. This wasn't easy for me to say, because I really value your friendship and your time."

Polite and honest is best. Sooner, rather than later. Honest is best....always.

 

[pdxvintagette]

One of the best dancers I know is an instructor who taught through the swing revival and dances every chance she gets to this day. She is VIBRANT on the dance floor - she just glows because she loves it so much, and she almost never turns down a dance from ANYONE. She goes out to DJ'd dances and lindy hops, or comes to a rockabilly show and jives or does "bar" east coast swing. And LOVES every minute. There's very few in town who match her skill, and she loves it when she gets a challenge, but I have never heard her complain about any dance with any lead. Ever.

I dance with both those with better skills and those with less than my own. As my boyfriend points out, and he sees it more clearly from the outside of the hobby, there is a massive amount of snobbery involved in the swing dance scene. Yeah, everyone best enjoys dancing with those of the same skills or better. But when you do this exclusively, you lose the opportunity to meet dancers who skills may be honed to become that good PLUS I think we forget sometimes that it is a social outing NOT NOT NOT a sport. Visit with people! Sit, have a drink, get to know people. I find that I enjoy the breaks between dances almost as much as the dances themselves. I'm able to enjoy the music and visit with people that I'm not able to hold conversations with on the dance floor. OR, if you ARE on the floor and the dance isn't so great, strike up a conversation while you're dancing, and see if you don't enjoy it more while socializing. If you're going to chat while dancing, you want easier moves anyway.

Now, remember that you're not obligated to dance with anyone. If you don't want to dance with them, simply turn them down. There's a fellow who stepped all over my feet through two dances one night. Everytime I visit that city, he asks me to dance - sometimes multiple times. I have turned him down every time since, as I have watched and become aware that he just doesn't improve. But I don't grouse about it to other dancers, and don't make a point of letting him know his skills are lacking. There's just no reason to be a snob about self-preservation.

If you're going dancing, I assume it is to have fun. Do what you need to do to enjoy yourself, and remember that unless you're entering a competition - well, it isn't a competition. Don't worry about what you look like to others while you're dancing with someone if you're enjoying the dance. It isn't all about skill all the time. Just ENJOY YOURSELF. Dance because you love to do it and appreciate all the time you're able to spend at it. Dance with others who feel the same way and you should never really have a problem.

 

["Skeet" McD]

As my boyfriend points out, and he sees it more clearly from the outside of the hobby, there is a massive amount of snobbery involved in the swing dance scene...PLUS I think we forget sometimes that it is a social outing NOT NOT NOT a sport.

I have no experience with Swing Dancing, nor its scene...but, believe me: what you say about it could be said about ANY human activity. More's the pity. There is no escape...this is humanity, red in tooth and nail. The good ones will stick out...you'll find each other. The rest: well, you can't make them go away, so you might as well be pleasant, but basically ignore them. Or so I think.

I do have some experience with country/contra dancing as well as mid-19C ballroom dancing. I'll save you the typographical screaming: just imagine this in italics, all caps, and bold face: I could not agree with you more about folks who do something (like social dance)--whose whole point was social interaction--as a competition sport. The dance was there, for all practical purposes, only as a means to meet people in a safe, civil, manner. There were monomaniacs then, too, of course...but now the proportion of them has gone from 1% to....well, you fill in the blank.

But, it seems you've found the "right" answer to the whole question: civil behavior trumps selfinterest in social interaction...or was supposed to, back when we had rules of conduct. If you've ever seen the wonderful Golden Age film MEET ME IN ST. LOUIS, the ballroom scene towards the end of the film provides all the background to dance behavior one could want...

"Skeet"

 

[PrettySquareGal]

The ability and mastered skill to have fun and help other people feel at ease is what I look for in a partner of any kind.

 

[Paisley]

...by weak I mean someone who can't dance in time with the music and doesn't have a basic knowledge of form and the most elementary moves...

This is what I was talking about. By knowledge, I'm sure you mean "ability to put into practice."

Thank you, everyone, for your great responses! Pdx and Skeet, I know what you mean by dance snobbery in the scene. I detest it along with you and it's exactly what I'm trying to avoid.

During the good old days of ballroom dancing, humanity was just as red in tooth and nail as it ever was. The 1940 edition of Emily Post's Etiquette has a chapter on ballroom dancing that describes awful dancers cutting in on good dancers (and nobody cutting in on the bad dancer); meanwhile, girls were left sitting it out, unable to ask men. A man had to dance with a girl until she or the music stopped--and he could end up babysitting her for hours. Introduce the girl down the stag line, and the stags slipped away with the dexterity of eels who recognize a hook. The girls without partners were ballroom failures. Today's scene, for all its faults, is better for overturning these conventions.

Ms. Post wasn't wild about these conventions, either. She calls it "inconsiderate" for a bad dancer to cut in on good ones and on the subject of sports says that a young man (in 1940) would likely tell a girl to take lessons instead of spending hours teaching her how to swim or play tennis. She agrees with the suggestion.

The principle Ms. Post puts forth is that if you are joining an activity, you should have a basic knowledge of it. Having no knowledge is OK if you're with a friend who has offered to teach you, but a dance club (or golf course, etc.) isn't a school. If you aren't good, you should warn anyone who asks you to join, and if you're still wanted for a partner, say nothing more about it.

Of course, neophytes need to practice to get better and the scene itself needs new people to replace those who leave. Personally, I'm happy to dance with newbies if they know some basics. It forces me to follow better and it helps them to improve. Most of them will become fairly good if they stick with it, and a few will become great. There's nothing wrong with generally dancing with people at your own level--that's what most people do at all levels. But there's a fine line between that and pointedly ignoring others. As for self-interest, the newbie you shun today may be a great dancer in six months. He may also be the cousin or best friend of someone you love dancing with, who won't appreciate your ill treatment.

What do you do with a weak partner--one who arrives unable to do the basics? I see nothing wrong with saying "No thanks" and sitting it out. Chas's speech might be just the thing for a more regular partner. But for a stranger or casual acquaintance, I don't think it's a good idea to start making suggestions--on dancing, golf, manners, or life.

What if you're the weak partner? There are things you can do to improve on your own: try a different teacher, videotape yourself, take private lessons, practice at home, and take (and read) notes, to name a few things. (Dancers: see my thread called "Learning to Dance" in the Golden Era section.) If you try these and you still don't have the basics, then for the sake of your own self-confidence, if nothing else, it's time to take up a different hobby.

 

[John in Covina]

Each of us has their set of talents and with that strengths and weaknesses. There will be things we're good at, things we can get good at and things we will never be good at. Skill sets can be learned in most things to be adequate, but that takes perserverence. So, for somethings, we simply cannot expect everyone to be onboard and enthusiastic if it's not something we do well. Then it's a case of setting up for embarrasment, and loved ones don't need that do they?

There is a difference between activities and say physical therapy, getting people to do PT for their own good is to get them back to health and mobility is a noble effort.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

Paisley

The only thing I would do is be as gracious as possible. I enjoy dancing..nevertheless I am not great at it, but, I do have a lot of fun. I dance with people who are better and worse. No one has been harmed ..........yet.

It is just dancing and it is entirely fun. BTW it is always a wonderful compliment to be asked.