Real McCoy's USA web store open

[pawineguy]

http://realmccoysnyc.com

 

[pawineguy]

Interestingly, coinciding with much debate here about intentionally imperfect garments to replicate historical items, here is a blurb from a $368 pair of jeans:

"Intentional imperfect stitching and asymmetrical pocket placement replicate the inconsistent quality of wartime jeans."

 

[Rudie]

As soon as the likes of H&M and Walmart pick up on the trick prices for low quality wonky clothes go through the roof.

 

[Big J]

Wow, I can't believe they're asking for $2089 for their Rough Wear A-2 on the website, AND it's sold out! I just saw one on the bay for $750 :eeek:

 

[Deacon211]

So, maybe someone here can educate me. I've always heard that TRM made top notch stuff...at a price.

But, wait times aside, is a Real McCoys A-2 or G-1 really better than Goodwear or ELC or (depending on your personal feelings) BK?

I just had an M-422A made for me by JC. It didn't quite fit right...and so he's making me a brand new one. That for about $400 less than RM. Having see JC's work in person now, it's hard to imagine RM topping that.

So, what's the draw? Is it just like the Cockpit where, people who don't know much about jackets, jeans, etc are drawn in to paying beyond top dollar for the ability to buy off the rack?

I'm not slamming them as such. I remember going into The Cockpit in NYC before I knew of what else was out there (and back then there wasn't much) and pretty much considering it the bees knees. I'm just surprised that you can get a MA-1 for more than you'd pay for a decent A-2 from ELC.

I'm genuinely curious as to RM's cache.

 

[Big J]

So, maybe someone here can educate me. I've always heard that TRM made top notch stuff...at a price.

But, wait times aside, is a Real McCoys A-2 or G-1 really better than Goodwear or ELC or (depending on your personal feelings) BK?

I just had an M-422A made for me by JC. It didn't quite fit right...and so he's making me a brand new one. That for about $400 less than RM. Having see JC's work in person now, it's hard to imagine RM topping that.

So, what's the draw? Is it just like the Cockpit where, people who don't know much about jackets, jeans, etc are drawn in to paying beyond top dollar for the ability to buy off the rack?

I'm not slamming them as such. I remember going into The Cockpit in NYC before I knew of what else was out there (and back then there wasn't much) and pretty much considering it the bees knees. I'm just surprised that you can get a MA-1 for more than you'd pay for a decent A-2 from ELC.

I'm genuinely curious as to RM's cache.

Deacon, from what I gather, the Japanese were out there first, doing the super-accurate repro flight jacket thing, and Aero, ELC, JC came along later (which is good if you're a larger size like me because the Japanese companies don't really make sizes 48/50). Japanese costs are high because everything has to be imported, and labor is expensive. But they are very high quality products (some would say that the quality is too good compared to wartime production standards). Despite whatever you've heard, Japanese workers have a lower productivity rate than US workers (wasted working hours spent 'umming' and 'erring'- or in Japanese 'ehhh' and 'toh'), which increases costs.

On the down side, the Japanese offer no custom ordering to keep costs down. Aero, JC, ELC are offering a 'made to measure' service (less so ELC these days), which must increase costs, but prices are much lower than the Japanese repros, even though the Japanese repros are all 'off the peg' only.

The Japanese manufacturers have got a relatively 'captive' market who can't (and won't) really shop around on the internet (which they generally believe is deeply unsafe and full of foreign scam artists) in English and can only buy ELC/Aero though official importers (who have added import taxes and a nice mark-up) making their jackets just as expensive as Buzz Rickson's, RMC's, or The Few and the imported western-made jackets are still only 'off the peg', not made to measure (as they would be when we buy), so why bother? For Japanese customers it's 'safer' to buy from a Japanese company. You got to remember that the Japanese companies haven't really cared about overseas markets- they are focused on selling at home. The Japanese manufacturers have got the domestic market covered, and that's all they seemed interested in until today.

The Japanese also really don't like to buy something that hasn't been made yet (notable exceptions are houses, which are almost always built to order). They are especially attached to the concept of 'showrooming'. Oh, yeah, and the Japanese want it now! I think waiting a couple of months for a jacket would kill them- it requires an unprecedented degree of forward planning, and maintaining enthusiasm and interest. Not strong suits in a culture where one faux pas by a celeb wearing an A-2 could render it's image totally toxic by association.

Anyway, since the Japanese were at it first, don't really market to us, and are both rare in our sizes and rare in our real lives, I would suggest that this has lent them a degree of 'exclusivity' in the west?

 

[Monitor]

Even Aero took a jab at the wonky stitching thing: "...amazingly there are even reproduction manufactures offering bad sewing as an desirable extra these days!"

 

[Blackadder]

I don't know about the others but I live in an import & sales tax free zone, so I can get the RM even with Japanese sales tax refund whilst none of the European makers offer VAT refund. With the yen devaluing, I end up paying about the same price whether buying Japanese or European.

BTW, RM does not just make leather jackets. Their niche is repro military and western clothing using pretty much the same materials as the originals. While companies like Pikes make decent repro N-1, RM makes their N-1 with 100% Alpaca lining (even Buzz only uses Alpaca-wool mix). RM also makes their various L-2s, MA-1 etc with 66 nylon and wool lining. You may say it is a hype thing because the original materials are not necessarily better or even more comfortable materials but the fact of the matter is they went to source all those old materials.

One more thing is that the Japanese sometimes for want of a better word "cheat". By that I mean, they make their repro clothings easier to distress. This I think sometimes add to the labour costs. Take for example,, the RM Buco has 2 layers of dye/paint so the top layer can fade easily to give the brownish-black look of a vintage jacket in no time. The same goes for some of their raw jeans which fade very easily. Again, this may be a hype thing but for us office working wannabes, these help us achieve the rugged look by ourselves without much work and time.

 

[Otter]

Wow, I can't believe they're asking for $2089 for their Rough Wear A-2 on the website, AND it's sold out! I just saw one on the bay for $750 :eeek:

Market economics !

 

[Deacon211]

Thanks guys...that is interesting.

I suppose though I wonder how they think they will do in NYC. Will NY fashionistas care enough about high accuracy to buy RM? Or maybe the exclusivity of this top end Japanese manufacturer will draw in those looking for the latest rare good.

It will be interesting to see how they fare.

 

[nick123]

Nice to see they have measurements for each garment. Now, about that Deadwood...I like it.

 

[Superfluous]

So, maybe someone here can educate me. I've always heard that TRM made top notch stuff...at a price.

But, wait times aside, is a Real McCoys A-2 or G-1 really better than Goodwear or ELC or (depending on your personal feelings) BK?

I just had an M-422A made for me by JC. It didn't quite fit right...and so he's making me a brand new one. That for about $400 less than RM. Having see JC's work in person now, it's hard to imagine RM topping that.

So, what's the draw? Is it just like the Cockpit where, people who don't know much about jackets, jeans, etc are drawn in to paying beyond top dollar for the ability to buy off the rack?

I'm not slamming them as such. I remember going into The Cockpit in NYC before I knew of what else was out there (and back then there wasn't much) and pretty much considering it the bees knees. I'm just surprised that you can get a MA-1 for more than you'd pay for a decent A-2 from ELC.

I'm genuinely curious as to RM's cache.

First, the pricing offered by RM’s NY and London boutiques is meaningfully higher than the pricing for the same products in Japan, and those outside of Japan can still purchase RM from Japan at the lower Japanese prices.

Second, RM’s quality is superlative. I own three RM leather jackets and each one is outstanding. The stitching is universally precise, symmetrical and consistent. Likewise, the component parts and other details are equally stellar. My Goodwear and Himel jackets are not as precise. On the other hand, Himel and Goodwear employ certain craftsmanship and manufacturing techniques that I have not seen on a RM jacket. JC and Himel are more akin to artists, as opposed to surgeons.

Third, RM’s leather is superlative. Two of my RM leather jackets are made from Shinki HH, and one is made from Deerskin. RM has a very close relationship with Shinki and, according to one insider, gets the cream of Shinki’s hides. Shinki is my favorite HH – robust, yet pliable. Both Goodwear and Himel also use Shinki HH. Vincenza has similar qualities, but I like Shinki even more. BK’s Liberty HH and Eastman’s Warhorse are thinner and less robust. Aero’s FQHH is too thick/rigid for me.

Fourth, is RM “better” than other “premier” leather jacket manufacturers (e.g., Goodwear, Aero, Eastman, Himel, etc.)? I own a Goodwear, Aero and two Himels (no Eastman). “Better” is a relative term and, therefore, I will not say that RM’s quality is “better.” IMHO, none of the other “premier” manufacturers can match the precision of RM’s manufacturing. As much as I love my Goodwear Imperial – it is a work of art – it has palpable imperfections (this is not a criticism, but rather, an observation). Ditto my Himel jackets. My prior Aero Plainsman likewise had noticeable imperfections . . . my current Aero Premier HB is better, but not equal to RM. A RM competitor (a person who manufacturers or sells a competing “premier” leather jacket brand) once told me that the RM leather jacket in their shop at the time was a “masterpiece” and their brand could not match the quality. Dave Himel exalts both Goodwear and RM. On the other hand, as mentioned above, Himel and JC employ certain craftsmanship and manufacturing techniques that I have not seen on a RM jacket – JC and Himel are not as surgically precise as RM, but they are more artistic in their approach.

Fifth, the distinct disadvantage of RM is lack of customization. RM’s standard sizing happens to fit me quite well.

Sixth, Goodwear and Himel offer a very personal and interactive experience that, IMHO, adds value to the end product. There is something special about being able to interact with the craftsman who is making your jacket. Conversely, a RM purchase is impersonal.

Lastly, is RM “worth” the price. IMHO, absolutely! Uncompromising, superlative quality is not cheap. Moreover, these jackets are investments that are intended to last a lifetime. As such, a small incremental price differential is well worth it in the long run. As mentioned above, RM can be purchased for less than the NY/London boutique prices. The RM Japan pricing is similar to Goodwear and Aero Premier Vincenza. Furthermore, even at the boutique prices, RM is less than Himel, and only slightly more than Goodwear. RM’s quality is consistently outstanding. There is no one producing a higher quality repro jacket (some may be as good, but no one is better). Conversely, as evidenced by recent discussions here an TFL, certain of the lesser priced jackets are plainly inferior.

That’s my 2 cents.

 

[pawineguy]

First, the pricing offered by RM’s NY and London boutiques is meaningfully higher than the pricing for the same products in Japan, and those outside of Japan can still purchase RM from Japan at the lower Japanese prices.

Second, RM’s quality is superlative. I own three RM leather jackets and each one is outstanding. The stitching is universally precise, symmetrical and consistent. Likewise, the component parts and other details are equally stellar. My Goodwear and Himel jackets are not as precise. On the other hand, Himel and Goodwear employ certain craftsmanship and manufacturing techniques that I have not seen on a RM jacket. JC and Himel are more akin to artists, as opposed to surgeons.

Third, RM’s leather is superlative. Two of my RM leather jackets are made from Shinki HH, and one is made from Deerskin. RM has a very close relationship with Shinki and, according to one insider, gets the cream of Shinki’s hides. Shinki is my favorite HH – robust, yet pliable. Both Goodwear and Himel also use Shinki HH. Vincenza has similar qualities, but I like Shinki even more. BK’s Liberty HH and Eastman’s Warhorse are thinner and less robust. Aero’s FQHH is too thick/rigid for me.

Fourth, is RM “better” than other “premier” leather jacket manufacturers (e.g., Goodwear, Aero, Eastman, Himel, etc.)? I own a Goodwear, Aero and two Himels (no Eastman). “Better” is a relative term and, therefore, I will not say that RM’s quality is “better.” IMHO, none of the other “premier” manufacturers can match the precision of RM’s manufacturing. As much as I love my Goodwear Imperial – it is a work of art – it has palpable imperfections (this is not a criticism, but rather, an observation). Ditto my Himel jackets. My prior Aero Plainsman likewise had noticeable imperfections . . . my current Aero Premier HB is better, but not equal to RM. A RM competitor (a person who manufacturers or sells a competing “premier” leather jacket brand) once told me that the RM leather jacket in their shop at the time was a “masterpiece” and their brand could not match the quality. Dave Himel exalts both Goodwear and RM. On the other hand, as mentioned above, Himel and JC employ certain craftsmanship and manufacturing techniques that I have not seen on a RM jacket – JC and Himel are not as surgically precise as RM, but they are more artistic in their approach.

Fifth, the distinct disadvantage of RM is lack of customization. RM’s standard sizing happens to fit me quite well.

Sixth, Goodwear and Himel offer a very personal and interactive experience that, IMHO, adds value to the end product. There is something special about being able to interact with the craftsman who is making your jacket. Conversely, a RM purchase is impersonal.

Lastly, is RM “worth” the price. IMHO, absolutely! Uncompromising, superlative quality is not cheap. Moreover, these jackets are investments that are intended to last a lifetime. As such, a small incremental price differential is well worth it in the long run. As mentioned above, RM can be purchased for less than the NY/London boutique prices. The RM Japan pricing is similar to Goodwear and Aero Premier Vincenza. Furthermore, even at the boutique prices, RM is less than Himel, and only slightly more than Goodwear. RM’s quality is consistently outstanding. There is no one producing a higher quality repro jacket (some may be as good, but no one is better). Conversely, as evidenced by recent discussions here an TFL, certain of the lesser priced jackets are plainly inferior.

That’s my 2 cents.

I'm sure at your rates that's a lot more than 2 cents!

The way I look at it, as I sometimes drool over their jackets, is that if I bought one perfect RM jacket then maybe I wouldn't buy and re-sell so many others. I've never seen one of their jackets reviewed that was not perfectly constructed and beautiful. A premium in price, but not without a commensurate premium in quality.

 

[Worf]

They don't make anything in my size and even if they did... NOT at those prices plus NY State sales tax! Thanks for the information though...

Dave

 

[Blackadder]

Some information that may help fellow loungers with the background of the brand.

1) RM was originally started by the owner of Toys McCoy and was a rather small company. At the time, RM's leather jackets were produced in a factory in New Zealand which later became the Few or RMNZ. Their A-2 jackets became a big hit as there was almost no other high-end A-2 manufacturers around but the jackets were not exact repros of particular contracts. That changed as people started to demand exact contract repros.

2) RM ran into financial trouble and the owner of Nylon, a manufacturer and retailer of Japanese jeans injected money into the company.

3) Some if not all of the original team of RM split and established their own companies after Nylon took over. The original owner started Toys McCoy whose products cost even more than RM owing to the special artwork on their garments. The New Zealand team formed the Few. A few others formed the Rainbow Country.

4) Despite the fact that Buco label was retained by RM, repro Buco helmets are marketed by Toys McCoy. Since Toys McCoy can no longer make repro using Buco's label, they switched to making Beck repros using Beck's label (not sure if they pay Legendary USA or anyone to do that.)

 

[Big J]

Thanks guys...that is interesting.

I suppose though I wonder how they think they will do in NYC. Will NY fashionistas care enough about high accuracy to buy RM? Or maybe the exclusivity of this top end Japanese manufacturer will draw in those looking for the latest rare good.

It will be interesting to see how they fare.

Considering they don't make anything in our size, I'm surprised they opened a store. Do they have a sign that says 'Only for rich small guys'?

 

[Rudie]

It's for Chinese on vacation to a former first world country.

 

[Monitor]

Do they have a sign that says 'Only for rich small guys'?

lol

Hipsters are very thin. $8,000 to look like a 50's car mechanic...

 

[Worf]

Yeah... Google hipsters with more money than muscles... That's their clientele, certainly not me. As for "former first world country"... well the jury's still out on that one...

Worf

 

[Benj]

One more thing is that the Japanese sometimes for want of a better word "cheat". By that I mean, they make their repro clothings easier to distress. This I think sometimes add to the labour costs. Take for example,, the RM Buco has 2 layers of dye/paint so the top layer can fade easily to give the brownish-black look of a vintage jacket in no time. The same goes for some of their raw jeans which fade very easily. Again, this may be a hype thing but for us office working wannabes, these help us achieve the rugged look by ourselves without much work and time.

You've just got your buco recently right? I know a guy on another forum who has worn his regularly for a few years, it still essentially looks brand new. The fact that the tea core is extremely difficult to make come out (naturally at least) is one of the main reasons why I went for that jacket rather than a Himel, on top of the RMC being about a grand cheaper if you know where to shop. You're sure it fades easily in no time?

I love my buco j-100 but no one is perfect, each jacket is different and there are varying levels of precision as you'd expect for the product. No matter the brand, everyone should go over the jacket and avoid simply chalking up imperfections, unevenness, or inconsistencies as just "character."

Also don't really get why people laugh about RMC having tiny sizing... sure if you are 6'5" 400 pounds it probably won't fit you, but I'm 5'9" 175 pounds and wear a size 38, and they go up to 46... plenty big for off the rack clothing.