Rank and Patches on Military Jackets - Might I Offend a Veteran?

[SteveZ]

I personally considered this question myself at the FEDORA LOUNGE some months ago when I constructed a US NAVY G1 flight jacket that closely resembled one that my father wore when he was a naval aviator. All the patches are authentic as well as his wings , name and rank on a sewn on leather name tag. ( one taken from my dads original and totally worn out '46 issue jacket )

Gosh I was proud of my dads flying days ! He's 90 now and confined to a wheel chair in a Florida nursing home. My wife thinks Im asking for trouble by wearing it in public. Thus far, I've only received lip from a guy who thought I looked too young to be a retired Navy commander and aviator. ( Im 65 years old now with plenty of grey hair. My dad retired at 44 years of age. Turns out in the end that this ' mouthy busybody ' never served a day in his life !! )

My wife wont let me wear the jacket when we go out to the movies together. Shes afraid of me getting into a scuffle with some drunken career civilian.

The flight jacket is a real conversation starter and I thank people for a complement and always inform them that the coat reflects my fathers distinguished Naval career and I always add the fact that he was originally enlisted and worked hard to get his commission and graduate flight school ! ( V-5 program ) Not bad to start as an E1 and end up a ASW squadron commanding officer flying Lockheed Neptunes !!

Im proud of all the veterans ! Do I insult them by wearing my fathers replica flight jacket ?

 

[Harp]

Im proud of all the veterans ! Do I insult them by wearing my fathers replica flight jacket ?

No, not at all.

 

[SteveZ]

Thanks Harp,

Im fixing up a nylon MA1 flight jacket to represent my US AIR FORCE service. ( 1970 to 1980 ) Nowhere near as distinguished as my fathers naval aviation days. People often ask me; " your dad was career Navy and you joined the Air Force ?" I was a Navy brat for years and was ready for something different. Pop didn't get upset either.

I will also be wearing all the ' old air force ' insignia of the day too. US AIR FORCE script on the outside of the jacket along with my name on the other side of the jacket. I also will have basic air crewman wings on the front as well with a couple of commands and units I served with. ( No rank however. Only officers had rank displayed on a jacket. )

Theres no way I'm going to carry a copy of my DD214 around with me to prove I served and rated any wings or awards and so forth.

My jacket will be the old style sage green jacket with the bright orange / red inside liner. Yep ! We actually had em like that at the time but they were being phased out for another updated jacket. ( 72 or 73 I think )

You guys in the lounge are the greatest. What a fine group and a wealth of information. My favorite site !

 

[SteveZ]

Besides............. how many people bought USN G1 jackets that were copies of Pete ' Maverick ' Mitchels Top Gun flight jacket ? I dont see folks complaining about those jacket phonies when Tom Cruise fans buy them and wear in public. Even the patches sewn on the jacket didnt make sense. Seems that the flight jacket marketers have totally saturated the market with those things.

And some guy has to gripe and criticize me when I show off my dads colors ? Whats wrong with this picture ?

 

[rocketeer]

As to reenacting. Here in the UK it would be nice to see a few A2s dedicated to other AAfs rather than just the 8th representing B17 squadrons.
You don't usually get a whole 'crew' of 10 men with the same jacket details, but there was the 9th here and the 15th in the Mediterranean. Everyone helped to win that war.
I never did the dress up thing though, just a casual civvi in an A2 look for me.

 

[EmergencyIan]

My grandfather served with the 5th Army during the War. There is a photograph of him in an Ike jacket with an Italian/Theater made silk woven 5th Army patch sewn on the left shoulder. As a result, I have this particular patch sewn onto my M-1943 jacket. It's in honor of him and his service along with displaying my pride in him. I hope that wouldn't offend anyone.

And, a V-Mail ..sketch from an Italian street artist:

- Ian

 

[Mad Hatter]

I have and wear several variations of authentic WW2 uniforms with period correct insignia and decorations. I think it is obvious I am not a 90+ WW2 Veteran and make no claims of earning the medals the ribbons represent. Wearing uniform items when done respectfully and the wearer is not attempting to pass oneself off as a veteran is in no way touching on stolen valor. Keep in mind that wearing current items is stolen valor and an offense both morally and legally. I have yet to encounter anyone who takes offense at my wearing a period correct uniform, and have found WW2 veterans I've encountered while doing so have universally approved of my homage to their efforts and sacrifices. Wearing the uniform allows me the opportunity to educate and provide living history.

 

[Mad Hatter]

I have met MANY veterans - I interview them in my spare time on video. I have a bomber jacket outfitted with 8th Air Force patches and 91st Bomb Group insignia - I have met many WWII flyers and they always enjoy seeing a young person wearing their insignia. I have gotten nothing but thanks and compliments for keeping such history alive amongst young people by wearing it on my person.

I wore that jacket in the presence of the pilot of the Memphis Belle, the pilot of the original Aluminium Overcast, bomber gunners of all types - I have never been scoffed, scolded or insulted - only given words of thanks and impressed looks by veterans who think that everyone under 35 doesn't have a clue what WWII is, and in many instances, they'd be right.

Granted, I don't wear any rank insignia - so I can't give an opinion about that one way or the other. However, I just cannot wear a plain A-2 - I like wearing a bit of "conversation" with it.

Mike

Original Aluminium Overcast? The name was chosen by the EAA and has no historic reference. It's big and it's silver, thus the name. I'm guessing you might have been confused as the Aircraft is currently painted to represent a B-17 from the 601st Bomb Squadron, 8th AAF 398th Bomb Group B-17G #42-102516, however that aircraft had no known name or nose art. (Info: provided by the current crew and 398th Museum website.)

 

[Colonel Adam]

While I save my pennies for a nice A2 reproduction, it's a good opportunity to gather information and learn. There's no better place for this than right here, so...

If a fellow were to have insignia, or rank sewn on. Or art painted on the back associated with a specific squadron or group, how would this be perceived among those who actually served? Though my dad fought in WWII (Infantry), and my older brother is retired career Army, I myself did not serve in any of the US armed forces. Any such additions to my new jacket would be made in the spirit of absolute respect, historical interest, and honoring those who served and whose courage I so greatly admire.

I'm not at all sure I could bear having such a beautiful jacket poked full of sewing holes or painted on. But if I did, am I asking for trouble? I don't want to offend or anger the very folk I want to honor.

Thanks for any insight.

It depends. If you're wearing WWII stuff (I wear vintage WWII service caps all the time), anyone in the military will know that it's WWII, and almost certainly won't give a darn. If you're wearing modern military stuff--like patches, rank insignia, etc.--I'm sure they won't mind that either, unless you're doing it in an insulting way--which you're not. Someone might ask you if you are or were in the military, in which case it's best to be honest and say no. As far as rank insignia goes, military personnel are not the only ones who wear them--cops, for example, wear the same insignia the military wears--nor is it illegal for a civilian to wear rank insignia or anything else military, so, frankly, it's none of their business. And again, I really doubt they would care. At worst they might think you're a little silly if you're walking around town wearing generals' stars. In other words, military personnel will not care one way or another what you wear. The only real problem is wearing a modern uniform in order to defraud the public. It's not against the law to wear a uniform, but it is against the law to tell people you're in the military to get free drinks, for example. Hope this helps.

 

[Colonel Adam]

If you were honoring a family connection, I'd think they'd appreciate it. If you pointed out that you got it because it's similar to something your Dad or your brother wore, they shouldn't hassle you.

Rank insignia is asking for a bit more trouble, though - especially if it's just made up. I wore my uncle's old Korean army greens with his insignia, and since it was REAL and family, no hassle. But if I just went out and picked up some captain's bars and stuck them on, I could see someone giving me grief over that.

But I would think that squadron insignia, or even original-creation art shouldn't be a hassle, if it's done with respect. There was certainly enough variation in nosepaints that you could have something made up and no one would ever know if it was real or not.

J

P.S. If anyone thinks you are 80-90 years old - or thereabouts - old enough to BE an actual veteran of WWII...okay. But I think you can take him, though...

With all respect, I must disagree with what you said about wearing rank insignia. The military does not hold any exclusive rights to the wearing of rank insignia--cops, security guards, and some private groups use them too--and all military personnel know this. A specific person may get a bug up his back side over it, but it's none of his business. And, it's not against the law. Period.

 

[MisterCairo]

nor is it illegal for a civilian to wear rank insignia or anything else military, so, frankly, it's none of their business.

It's not against the law to wear a uniform

The military does not hold any exclusive rights to the wearing of rank insignia

In Canada, there are criminal prohibitions against the wearing, without authority, of (current) uniforms, medals, decorations, etc., but interestingly not rank insignia. Here is section 419 of the Criminal Code of Canada:


419. Every one who without lawful authority, the proof of which lies on him,

(a) wears a uniform of the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force* or a uniform that is so similar to the uniform of any of those forces that it is likely to be mistaken therefor,

(b) wears a distinctive mark relating to wounds received or service performed in war, or a military medal, ribbon, badge, chevron or any decoration or order that is awarded for war services, or any imitation thereof, or any mark or device or thing that is likely to be mistaken for any such mark, medal, ribbon, badge, chevron, decoration or order,

(c) has in his possession a certificate of discharge, certificate of release, statement of service or identity card from the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force that has not been issued to and does not belong to him, or

(d) has in his possession a commission or warrant or a certificate of discharge, certificate of release, statement of service or identity card, issued to an officer or a person in or who has been in the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force, that contains any alteration that is not verified by the initials of the officer who issued it, or by the initials of an officer thereto lawfully authorized,

is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.***

*So, even the uniforms, etc., of any other nation in current usage

***Summary Conviction = American "misdemeanour" = max. six months in jail and/or $2,000 fine.

Exceptions include things like tv, movie or stage productions involving current service.

 

[Colonel Adam]

With respect to everyone here, I'd like to set the record straight about some of the thing we're saying and claiming here.
It IS NOT against the law for ANYONE to wear ANY military rank insignia, military patches of any kind including squadron patches, pilots' wings, or any other military uniforms, gear, equipment, etc. Any type of art work, including patches, wings, rank insignia, buttons, etc., created by a military person or civilian working for the military is in Public Domain. No military branch holds copyrights to any of these things, therefore it is not against the law for any civilian to buy, wear, sell, and use these things (why do you think this stuff is for sale all over the internet?). There are, however, two exceptions (I'll use the Air Force as an example): The official "Department of the Air Force, United States of America" seal and modern Hap Arnold ribbon logo are copyrighted by the Air Force. However, this does not mean that civilians can not buy and use them, they can, it means only that one can not make them or print them on (say) coffee cups without permission.
As far as uniforms are concerned: it IS NOT against the law for a civilian to wear any military uniform--especially something like an A2 jacket. It is, however, against the law to attempt to defraud the public. In other words: it is perfectly legal to wear a military uniform--after all, your tax dollars paid for them, and are therefore the property of We the People of the United States of America (and although a member of the military might not now this, the US Military does). However, if you were to (say) go into a bar and allow the bartender or customers to buy you free drinks because he or they believe you to be in the military, that is considered Fraud, and is illegal. This is especially true if you tell people you're in the military. Again, it is not against the law to wear a military uniform, it is against the law to do so in order to illegally profit from it.
I hope this has cleared things up for everyone. No doubt someone will disagree with what I've written, but everything here is factual and truthful.
A very good rule of thumb is: If you can buy it openly on the internet, or buy it in a military surplus store, it is perfectly legal--meaning it's not illegal--to wear and use these things. There is no illegal trade on US Military goods. Even A2 jackets.

 

[Colonel Adam]

In Canada, there are criminal prohibitions against the wearing, without authority, of (current) uniforms, medals, decorations, etc., but interestingly not rank insignia. Here is section 419 of the Criminal Code of Canada:


419. Every one who without lawful authority, the proof of which lies on him,

(a) wears a uniform of the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force* or a uniform that is so similar to the uniform of any of those forces that it is likely to be mistaken therefor,

(b) wears a distinctive mark relating to wounds received or service performed in war, or a military medal, ribbon, badge, chevron or any decoration or order that is awarded for war services, or any imitation thereof, or any mark or device or thing that is likely to be mistaken for any such mark, medal, ribbon, badge, chevron, decoration or order,

(c) has in his possession a certificate of discharge, certificate of release, statement of service or identity card from the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force that has not been issued to and does not belong to him, or

(d) has in his possession a commission or warrant or a certificate of discharge, certificate of release, statement of service or identity card, issued to an officer or a person in or who has been in the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force, that contains any alteration that is not verified by the initials of the officer who issued it, or by the initials of an officer thereto lawfully authorized,

is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.***

*So, even the uniforms, etc., of any other nation in current usage

***Summary Conviction = American "misdemeanour" = max. six months in jail and/or $2,000 fine.

Exceptions include things like tv, movie or stage productions involving current service.

Forgive me, I should have considered members outside the US. I was referring only to the US Military.

 

[Colonel Adam]

When it comes to A2 jackets, a lot of us seem to be forgetting a few very crucial points:
A2 jackets are not the exclusive property of the US Air Force. Airmen do not have some God-given exclusive right to wear them. There are numerous companies around the world who make them, and yet Airmen are only allowed to use U.S. Wigs brand jackets--so who are all the other companies making them for? You. Anyone who can afford to buy one. Also, Airmen were not even allowed to wear them themselves after WWII until 1988! I honestly can't imagine someone paying 300 dollars, or more, for a jacket, and then not wear it because he's afraid that it might offend someone in the Air Force. I can't imagine an Airman being so petty that it WOULD offend him.
On the other hand, please don't tell a serviceman you're wearing your jacket because you're somehow "supporting the troops" by doing so, unless you really are. Most likely, he or she will know if you're just blowing smoke, and that WILL offend him or her.
Stop being paranoid. You're not going to offend anyone because your wearing an A2 jacket--if anything, they'll probably feel a little more pride, the same way a professional football player feels more pride when he sees his fans wearing his jersey number. Give our servicemen and women a little more credit than that. I promise you, any serviceman, like my oldest son, who served a couple of years in Afghanistan and came back a wounded, decorated war hero, isn't going care about your jacket or your captain bars. He might grin, though.
Enjoy!

 

[Colonel Adam]

The question wasn't about re-enacting, it was the thought to what purpose re-enacting has and why people do it. Look at world history, it's about 80% (if not more) about war. War has been around ever since day one and that's how it will be. It's sad but, war will come and go and it's just going to be like that. I don't like it any more then any one but, that's the way the world is.

I'd bet you that most people who know anything about the 1940's, if you were to ask them what's the first thing that comes to their mind when the 1940's are mentioned, WWII is the first thing that would come to mind.

=WR=

PS. I never wear a WWII uniform around town.

I can answer that question! I've been a professional historian for more than 30 years--my real expertise is in Medieval history, but of course I've studied other periods as well.
Firstly, I'd like to correct you on something, if I may. Although it may seem that history is 80% about war, it isn't really. There is a massive amount of history we know about that has nothing to do with war. Evolution, dinosaurs, medieval peasant life, exploration, the invention of paper, just to name a few topics.
Secondly, as to reenactment, over the years I've found there are two basic reasons why people do it and why it's important.
1) reenactment, whether Medieval, Civil War, WWII, or other, is a good way--if done properly and accurately--to give interested people an idea of what life was like in the past, compared to the way it is today. Speaking of war (lol), it allows people to "witness" a particular battle without being placed in actual danger. You might be surprised how many people assume that things in the past were more-or-less the way things are today. When I used to give Medieval lectures to school kids, the two things they all wanted to know was: what did people back then use for toilet paper, and what did their underwear look like? Reenactors can not just explain these things, but show them these things too.
And 2) Reenactment is greatly beneficial for those who want to know "what was it really like back then, and why did they do the things they did." It gives the reenactor an idea of what it felt like. What does it actually feel like to ride a horse wearing a suit of armor? I found out. I made a real suit of armor and road around on a horse. I think the two most important lessons I learned from doing it was 1) I found out just how much it racks your spine, and I learned to have a little more respect for the men who had to do this all the time; and 2) I understood why the waist of armor is so high up--just under the rib cage. I made the waist of my armor suited for standing up--which is fine for foot combat--not suited for sitting down. So, it took about 20 minutes before the waist of my armor started to grind away at my hips. Now I know, from actual experience, why the waist has to be made higher. Of course, one could learn this by reading a book, but experiencing it first hand is something completely different.
Now days serious archeologists call this Living Archaeology, and it has given them huge important insight in how things used to be. That, and, it's fun to play dress-up and make-believe!
Hope this helped.

 

[MisterCairo]

Forgive me, I should have considered members outside the US. I was referring only to the US Military.

No worries, I figured that, just throwing in the Canuck approach!

As for copyright issues, up here the Crown has copyright in all military crests, badges, etc., and as noted, you can't print off your own for sale.

We had geocachers get their peepees slapped because they minted "coins" for sale with regimental, ship and squadron crests!

 

[CBI]

the USMC anchor and globe is copywritten by the US Marines. If anyone sells anything with that emblem on it, they supposed to get permission from the Marine Corps. This has been an issue for companies that make repro WW2 HBT uniforms with the insignia on the pocket. Of course, so many vendors sell USMC stuff I am sure the Corps can't address them all. Maybe this has changed recently. As far an offending anyone, I have seen people get their nose out of joint and I witnessed a teenager wearing rank insignia on a jacket and a Vet telling him to "take that damn jacket off". I have been to airshows and heard comments "that guy shouldn't be wearing that". I have had this happen to me as well. Someone sees a cool jacket and asks if I was "in the 20th Air Force" No, I just really love this stuff, "Oh, well, I was in the 20th AF and I'm not sure I'm OK with anyone wearing something like that". I have also had many great experiences and of course, mostly, no one cares. I do like patched jackets but at the end of the day, probably best ................ if you didn't earn it, don't wear it in re patches and insignia. Reenacting, a different issue all together.

 

[MisterCairo]

the USMC anchor and globe is copywritten by the US Marines.

All current military insignia, crests, cap badges, etc., are copyright Her Majesty the Queen in Right of Canada. Use is fairly limited, things available through the Canex, regimental, squadron or ships' canteens, etc., certain things issued by the Royal Canadian Legion (which in turn has copyright over many things, including the famous Remembrance Day poppy) and so forth.

Any others need permission from National Defence/Directorate History and Heritage.

 

[Kev Agent of The Shadow]

I found this thread very interesting, interesting enough to finally register.

I have a couple of jean jackets I put patches all over (sleeves, front, and back)- the very number & variety (military, movies, comicbooks, railroads, etc) is enough to tell anyone that I clearly didn't serve in any of the units involved (if they are real).

Last year I purchased a reproduction of an 1899 US Army tunic and I wanted to give it the some "flavor". In addition to a couple of patches on each shoulder, I also put on the yellow epaulettes (for cavalry branch) and corporal stripes. Mind you "back in the day" I was an E4 in an Armor Unit so I felt very comfortable with both the cavalry insignia and the rank.

I have since come to regret putting the rank on the jacket, as they are the big inverted "V's" they used in 1899 - which just happen to look like what a lot of law enforcement agencies use now, and I am uncomfortable thinking that people might mistake me for a police officer want-a-be. My advice is: No rank even if you served and earned it.

A quick mention on unit patches. In the US Army you wear your unit patch on your left shoulder; however if you served in combat with a unit you are entitled to also put that former unit patch on your right shoulder - it is a BIG deal in the Army to be entitled to do so. So my advice on unit patches is: They are ok, but never put them on your right shoulder.

On the right shoulder of my 1899 tunic and jean jackets I make sure that patch is something fictional and never an actual unit. For example on the right sleeve of the 1899 tunic I put a Warehouse 13 pyramid patch. That way no one is going to accuse me of pretending to be a combat veteran.

My two cents.

KATS

 

[Edward]

I should have thought anyone who would seriously accuse you of attempting to impersonate a veteran of a conflict that was done over a century ago is not in possession of an opinion with which you need concern yourself.