Questions About the United States Navy Peacoat

[Pirendeus]

I just recently purchased a peacoat and came across this thread. The tag is actually a lot like the "counterfeit" tag posted earlier

. Does anyone know why this was identified as a counterfeit coat? The tag on mine follows the same formatting as the image above, and it has 2X5 buttons (1 row hidden), lower exterior pockets, no interior pockets, and the fabric has a softer hand than my other 1958 kersey wool pea coat. This was actually my first indication that something might be wrong, assuming that any coat made with melton instead of kersey wool would be new enough to have tag that identified the production year. Plus, the coat is in very nice condition for a coat that would need to be older than the 1980's, unless I'm misidentifying melton wool.
Is there anything other than these anomolies that would indicate that the coat is fake? I bought it on ebay, so I can ask for a refund or file a claim if there is good evidence of forgery.

 

[David Minton]

I just recently purchased a peacoat and came across this thread. The tag is actually a lot like the "counterfeit" tag posted earlier

. Does anyone know why this was identified as a counterfeit coat? The tag on mine follows the same formatting as the image above, and it has 2X5 buttons (1 row hidden), lower exterior pockets, no interior pockets, and the fabric has a softer hand than my other 1958 kersey wool pea coat. This was actually my first indication that something might be wrong, assuming that any coat made with melton instead of kersey wool would be new enough to have tag that identified the production year. Plus, the coat is in very nice condition for a coat that would need to be older than the 1980's, unless I'm misidentifying melton wool.
Is there anything other than these anomolies that would indicate that the coat is fake? I bought it on ebay, so I can ask for a refund or file a claim if there is good evidence of forgery.

This is sort of like asking Mrs. Lincoln if, aside from the death of her husband, did she enjoy the play."

Even without the label, I would say your coat is a reproduction. All US Navy pea coats I have encountered, including the four ten button coats I have owned have had two interior pockets. Also, ten button coats stopped being made around the end of WWII, so the coat would need to be around 70 years old to be authentic. That being the case, you can still find examples in mint condition (I have one), though they will be made of heavy and stiff Kersey wool.

The label, however, is the strongest indicator, as the US Navy has never, to my knowledge, used such a format. I bet if you looked up the contract number in a federal database, it would not be the correct syntax.

The coat may be worth what you paid for it, if you didn't pay much, but from all I know about pea coats (I currently own around 15), it is not an example of an authentic US Navy coat.

 

[Pirendeus]

This is sort of like asking Mrs. Lincoln if, aside from the death of her husband, did she enjoy the play."

Even without the label, I would say your coat is a reproduction. All US Navy pea coats I have encountered, including the four ten button coats I have owned have had two interior pockets. Also, ten button coats stopped being made around the end of WWII, so the coat would need to be around 70 years old to be authentic. That being the case, you can still find examples in mint condition (I have one), though they will be made of heavy and stiff Kersey wool.

The label, however, is the strongest indicator, as the US Navy has never, to my knowledge, used such a format. I bet if you looked up the contract number in a federal database, it would not be the correct syntax.

The coat may be worth what you paid for it, if you didn't pay much, but from all I know about pea coats (I currently own around 15), it is not an example of an authentic US Navy coat.

Thank you for your reply. I'm still wondering why anyone would make an imitation pea coat. I can understand a fake Gucci or d&g, buy why an inexpensive government-issued item?

 

[Peacoat]

David Minton is correct. This type of label was never used by the Navy. I believe I have seen this label in a coat made by Fidelity, but I could be wrong.

 

[David Minton]

Thank you for your reply. I'm still wondering why anyone would make an imitation pea coat. I can understand a fake Gucci or d&g, buy why an inexpensive government-issued item?

Short answer is "a fool and his money are soon parted."

Because this style of coat hasn't been made for a US Navy contract in around 70 years. If you want a "new" one, you can't buy one at any price; they don't exist. The best you could do is find an unissued one that is at least 70 years old, and good luck at that. If you want to hunt on eBay, you can get lucky to find a size 38-42 for $60-$100. If you want a mint condition coat larger than that, good luck, or else be prepared to be spending hundreds. And, some people don't like the idea of buying used, or even old clothes, though I can see why those on this board wouldn't understand the mindset.

As for "inexpensive," if you want to buy a current style peacoat from the current contract holder, Sterlingwear of Boston charges $259.00 for a civilian version. I am not sure what a peacoat would cost at a PX/NX, but I believe you need some sort of connection to buy direct. I am sure this is why there is a market for reproductions (or fakes, imitations, etc.).

 

[Doctor Damage]

Is there anything other than these anomolies that would indicate that the coat is fake? I bought it on ebay, so I can ask for a refund or file a claim if there is good evidence of forgery.

Did the seller explicitly claim this was an authentic or genuine USN or US military pea coat? If not, then you have no grounds.

Speaking generally, I think it is important for our members to keep some perspective here and not start believing that someone is peddling fakes or forgeries. Fidelity is the main manufacturer of non-military pea coats and although their designs are different than the military spec ones that Sterlingwear makes, it's important to note that Sterlingwear actually makes civilian pea coats which are the same design as Fidelity. None of these are intended to be fakes or forgeries to deceive consumers, although sometimes their advertising copy might be a bit vague. (On that note, the leather flight jacket biz is far more shameless in terms of implying "authenticity" where there is none than either Fidelity or Sterlingwear do with pea coats.) For what it's worth, the civilian pea coats from Fidelity and Sterlingwear are well made, solid garments. I am more concerned about companies like Buzz Rickson and Real McCoy's which make replicas of vintage pea coats, including dead copies of the tags - those could be easily sold as forgeries with some artificial aging, although for the moment they are higher priced than original vintage coats.

 

[Spoonbelly]

Did the seller explicitly claim this was an authentic or genuine USN or US military pea coat? If not, then you have no grounds.

Speaking generally, I think it is important for our members to keep some perspective here and not start believing that someone is peddling fakes or forgeries. Fidelity is the main manufacturer of non-military pea coats and although their designs are different than the military spec ones that Sterlingwear makes, it's important to note that Sterlingwear actually makes civilian pea coats which are the same design as Fidelity. None of these are intended to be fakes or forgeries to deceive consumers, although sometimes their advertising copy might be a bit vague. (On that note, the leather flight jacket biz is far more shameless in terms of implying "authenticity" where there is none than either Fidelity or Sterlingwear do with pea coats.) For what it's worth, the civilian pea coats from Fidelity and Sterlingwear are well made, solid garments. I am more concerned about companies like Buzz Rickson and Real McCoy's which make replicas of vintage pea coats, including dead copies of the tags - those could be easily sold as forgeries with some artificial aging, although for the moment they are higher priced than original vintage coats.

I have 10 pea coats - 8 Kersey and 2 Meltons, and have bought and sold a few others on ebay. I'm not trying to hoard these as I just like them so damn much. I also have a rather rare size - 46 or 46L. I also have 1 Cockpit A-2. Luckily for me, I don't have the A-2 bug and have yet another closet full of jackets. I am however thinking of a G&B A-2. A couple of the pea coats I bought wound up being fakes. The photos and descriptions on ebay looked just like real vintage Kersey coats. Both had no tags on them. When I received them as soon as I picked up the box they were way too light in weight and I immediately knew they were fakes even before I opened the boxes. They looked just like vintage coats but were much lighter with thin wool material. The photos can fool you. I'm not sure if the sellers even knew that they were fake coats. I brought them to Goodwill as I didn't want any return or resale projects.

 

[Doctor Damage]

USN sailor, New York subway, 1966

 

[Peacoat]

And the year of the coat is probably a 1964 or 1965 with the "US NAVY" tag. Not sure of the exact year, but I am sure about the tag.

 

[Doctor Damage]

Colin Farrell in a 6 button coat.

 

[Peacoat]

And I would say that coat is 1980 or later. Hard to tell with the collar popped, though.

 

[Spoonbelly]

And I would say that coat is 1980 or later. Hard to tell with the collar popped, though.

And, he would look alot better if that were a dark blue Kersey.

 

[Doctor Damage]

From the USN website (I don't know why part of the text is highlighted).

 

[Peacoat]

Interestingly, that indicates peacoats are to be worn only by E6 and below. In the past Chiefs were allowed to wear the peacoat or the bridgecoat, at their option. I wonder if the rule has, in fact, changed?

 

[Doctor Damage]

Interestingly, that indicates peacoats are to be worn only by E6 and below. In the past Chiefs were allowed to wear the peacoat or the bridgecoat, at their option. I wonder if the rule has, in fact, changed?

Sorry, I should have posted the accompanying section on reefers:

 

[MB5]

I purchased a peacoat based on the peacoat dating thread and seem to have wound up with an oddball. And I am very curious to see what everyone thinks happened with this coat.

It is dated 1975 with no mention of Melton, but appears to be black Melton with the pre-1980 lining. I am pretty certain I am reading the date on the tag correctly and replacing the whole lining with one from a different coat seems like a lot of work, though it is a possibility. If it was a tag swap on a 1980+ I would expect the two-material lining.
The coat had pewter buttons when purchased, but several were sewn through the pockets, so it may not have come with them. The pocket linings and tag are still white so I don't think it was dyed black by the previous owner. I have attached photos of my brothers 1974 Melton contract in midnight Melton for comparison. The button holes are different sizes so maybe that will give a clue as to what is going on.

Thank you for your assistance!

My (supposedly) 1975 coat on the left, brother's 1974 on right


1975


1974

 

[Peacoat]

Your coat does appear to be a 1975 contract coat, that was originally made using the fouled anchor black buttons. The black buttons were then replaced with pewter buttons. I am thinking your coat was not issued in boot camp as there is no service number stenciled in the lining. Same with your brother's coat. Your coat should be a dark midnight blue in the Kersey fabric. Comparing it to your brother's coat may not be a good comparison as that coat is melton, not Kersey. There may be some variation in color in the Melton fabric compared to the standard Kersey midnight blue.

But what about the texture of the fabric? Is your coat the same texture as your bother's coat? I am betting it is not, but that your coat is a softer, smoother and thicker fabric. To some people, this distinction can be subtle.

In determining the color, what I would like for you to do is to find a known black object or article of clothing. Take this black object outside with your peacoat. Find a shady spot, or an overcast day will be fine. Then compare the two side by side. I am betting your coat will actually have a deep blue color, rather than black. This too, can be a subtle difference.

After you have determined the texture of the coat, and conducted the color test, please let us know what you have found. Then perhaps I can solve this riddle. PC.

 

[illdefined]

Hello,

Longtime viewer of the site, which led me to recently purchase the following:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/201239168092?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649

It fits like a suit (almost too much so, shoulders are a little square), has the label, the sleeve stitching, the corduroy linings...the only problem is that it feels BRAND NEW.

It's in immaculate condition, like it must've been stored in a refrigerator by itself. Aside from some wrinkling in the satin (stenciled) lining, the properly sewn on label, and one button having clearly been replaced, everything is perfect with no signs of wear that I can see. Did I just buy a replica?

Any help on the dating would be very welcome. I'm attaching the pictures from the eBay listing. Let me know if there's more I should take.

Many, many thanks and Happy New Year.

 

[Peacoat]

No, that is no replica but a 1949 to about 1950 or 1951. I have a 1949 coat. It has the nicest finish of any of my coats. Congratulations on an excellent score.

For more dating questions, see my guide, which is stickied at the top of the Outerwear Section.

Welcome to the Lounge. P.C.

 

[illdefined]

No, that is no replica but a 1949 to about 1950 or 1951. I have a 1949 coat. It has the nicest finish of any of my coats. Congratulations on an excellent score.

For more dating questions, see my guide, which is stickied at the top of the Outerwear Section.

Welcome to the Lounge. P.C.

Wow, if this coat is 65 years old then they truly don't make things like they used to.

Thank you for the quick response and the welcome Peacoat. It was your stickie that led me to buy this one in the first place, but having it my hands it felt like it was too good to be true. It really is that nice.

So thanks again for writing it, it steered me very well.